1
00:05:06,683 --> 00:05:09,935
(Srebnik sings in Polish)
♪A little white house

2
00:05:10,061 --> 00:05:13,814
♪ Lingers in my memory

3
00:05:13,940 --> 00:05:17,234
♪ Of that little white house

4
00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:20,237
♪ I dream each night

5
00:05:20,822 --> 00:05:23,907
♪ The windows of that little house

6
00:05:24,033 --> 00:05:27,578
♪ Beautifully shine in the sun

7
00:05:27,704 --> 00:05:31,081
♪ As if someone's eyes

8
00:05:31,207 --> 00:05:34,293
♪ Were filling with tears

9
00:05:34,419 --> 00:05:38,172
♪ There was so much happiness
in that little house

10
00:05:38,298 --> 00:05:40,757
♪ And so many joyous days

11
00:05:40,884 --> 00:05:44,261
♪ When I remember
those blissful moments

12
00:05:44,387 --> 00:05:47,764
♪ My heart trembles

13
00:05:47,891 --> 00:05:51,393
♪ A little white house

14
00:05:51,519 --> 00:05:54,605
♪ Lingers in my memory

15
00:05:55,190 --> 00:05:58,567
♪ Of that little white house

16
00:05:58,693 --> 00:06:00,944
♪ I dream each night ♪

17
00:06:01,070 --> 00:06:06,325
(Man ♪ 1 speaking Polish)

18
00:06:08,119 --> 00:06:10,996
(Female interpreter in French)
He was 13 and a half years old.

19
00:06:11,122 --> 00:06:14,791
He had a lovely singing voice
and we heard him.

20
00:06:14,918 --> 00:06:17,419
♪ A little white house

21
00:06:17,545 --> 00:06:20,214
♪ Lingers in my memory

22
00:06:20,340 --> 00:06:22,799
♪ Of that little white house

23
00:06:22,926 --> 00:06:25,802
♪ I dream each night

24
00:06:25,929 --> 00:06:28,847
♪ The windows of that little house

25
00:06:28,973 --> 00:06:31,934
♪ Beautifully shine in the sun

26
00:06:32,060 --> 00:06:35,145
♪ As if someone's eyes

27
00:06:35,271 --> 00:06:38,941
♪ Were filling with tears ♪

28
00:06:44,322 --> 00:06:46,657
(Man ♪3 speaking Polish)

29
00:06:50,328 --> 00:06:53,789
(Interpreter) When I heard him again,
my heart beat faster,

30
00:06:53,915 --> 00:06:57,292
because what happened
here... was a murder.

31
00:06:58,127 --> 00:07:01,004
I really relived what happened.

32
00:07:35,498 --> 00:07:37,624
(Sighs and coughs)

33
00:08:03,568 --> 00:08:08,739
(In German)
It's hard to recognise, but it was here.

34
00:08:10,992 --> 00:08:14,995
They burned people here.

35
00:08:15,121 --> 00:08:17,789
A lot of people were burned here.

36
00:08:28,426 --> 00:08:30,844
Yes, this is the place.

37
00:08:43,524 --> 00:08:45,275
(Crow caws)

38
00:09:07,465 --> 00:09:11,134
No one ever left here again.

39
00:09:18,726 --> 00:09:21,186
The gas vans came in here...

40
00:09:21,312 --> 00:09:23,980
There were two huge ovens...

41
00:09:25,608 --> 00:09:27,067
(Sighs)

42
00:09:27,193 --> 00:09:31,196
...and after ward,
the bodies were thrown

43
00:09:32,031 --> 00:09:34,908
into these ovens,

44
00:09:35,034 --> 00:09:37,828
and the flames reached to the sky.

45
00:09:37,954 --> 00:09:40,956
- (Lanzmann in German) To the sky?
- Ja.

46
00:09:44,627 --> 00:09:46,753
It was terrible.

47
00:09:55,596 --> 00:09:59,850
No one can describe it.

48
00:09:59,976 --> 00:10:03,228
No one can...

49
00:10:03,354 --> 00:10:07,232
recreate what happened here.

50
00:10:09,569 --> 00:10:12,320
Impossible!
And no one can understand it.

51
00:10:13,156 --> 00:10:15,866
Even I, here, now.

52
00:10:23,750 --> 00:10:26,168
I can't believe I'm here.

53
00:10:29,005 --> 00:10:31,798
No, I just can't believe it.

54
00:10:44,020 --> 00:10:46,855
It was always this peaceful here.

55
00:10:48,024 --> 00:10:54,154
When they burned 2,000 people...
Jews... every day,

56
00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:56,364
it was just as peaceful.

57
00:10:58,659 --> 00:11:02,704
No one shouted.
Everyone went about his work.

58
00:11:02,830 --> 00:11:04,956
It was silent. Peaceful.

59
00:11:05,708 --> 00:11:07,751
Just as it is now.

60
00:11:17,178 --> 00:11:20,222
(Srebnik singing in German)

61
00:11:26,020 --> 00:11:27,646
(Cattle lowing)

62
00:11:36,656 --> 00:11:40,325
♪ You, girl, don't you cry

63
00:11:40,451 --> 00:11:43,453
♪ Don't be so sad

64
00:11:43,579 --> 00:11:46,957
♪ For the dear summer is nearing

65
00:11:47,083 --> 00:11:49,209
♪ And I'll return with it

66
00:11:49,335 --> 00:11:52,546
♪ A mug of red wine,
a slice of roast

67
00:11:52,672 --> 00:11:55,966
♪ That's what the girls
give their soldiers

68
00:12:03,266 --> 00:12:06,560
♪ When the soldiers march along

69
00:12:06,686 --> 00:12:09,980
♪ The girls open
their doors and windows... ♪

70
00:12:17,780 --> 00:12:20,490
(Man ♪ 1 speaking Polish)

71
00:12:21,617 --> 00:12:26,246
(Interpreter in French) They thought
the Germans made him sing on the river.

72
00:12:26,372 --> 00:12:28,498
(Men speaking Polish)

73
00:12:30,543 --> 00:12:33,461
(Interpreter)
He was a toy to amuse them.

74
00:12:33,588 --> 00:12:36,715
He had to do it.

75
00:12:36,841 --> 00:12:39,301
He sang, but his heart wept.

76
00:12:44,056 --> 00:12:47,309
(Lanzmann in French) Do their hearts
weep thinking about that now?

77
00:12:47,435 --> 00:12:50,061
- (Men reply)
- (Interpreter) Certainly, very much so.

78
00:12:50,187 --> 00:12:52,856
(Man ♪2 continues)

79
00:12:57,236 --> 00:13:00,113
(Interpreter) They still talk about it
around the family table.

80
00:13:00,239 --> 00:13:03,325
(Man ♪2 continues)

81
00:13:03,451 --> 00:13:06,202
It was public, so everyone knew of it.

82
00:13:07,747 --> 00:13:09,539
(Speaks Polish)

83
00:13:11,918 --> 00:13:15,253
He said that was true German irony...

84
00:13:18,132 --> 00:13:20,800
...people were being killed,
and he had to sing.

85
00:13:22,470 --> 00:13:24,596
That's what I thought.

86
00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:30,352
(Lanzmann)
What died in him in Chelmno?

87
00:13:31,562 --> 00:13:33,939
(Speaks Yiddish)

88
00:13:39,362 --> 00:13:41,863
(Female Interpreter ♪2 in French)
Everything died.

89
00:13:41,989 --> 00:13:44,282
But he's only human,
and he wants to live.

90
00:13:44,408 --> 00:13:46,743
So he must forget.

91
00:13:48,079 --> 00:13:51,790
The other survivor:
MICHAEL PODCHLEBNIK - ISRAEL

92
00:13:53,334 --> 00:13:55,335
(Interpreter ♪2 speaks Yiddish)

93
00:14:08,057 --> 00:14:12,560
He thanks God for what remains
and that he can forget.

94
00:14:12,687 --> 00:14:14,771
And let's not talk about that.

95
00:14:17,984 --> 00:14:20,568
(Lanzmann) Does he think
it's good to talk about it?

96
00:14:20,695 --> 00:14:24,030
(Interpreter ♪2 speaks Yiddish)

97
00:14:27,660 --> 00:14:29,911
For me it's not good.

98
00:14:34,583 --> 00:14:37,377
(Lanzmann)
Then why is he talking about it?

99
00:14:37,503 --> 00:14:39,921
(Speaking Yiddish)

100
00:14:53,269 --> 00:14:56,521
Because you're insisting on it.

101
00:14:56,647 --> 00:15:01,568
He was sent books on the Eichmann trial,
where he was a witness,

102
00:15:01,694 --> 00:15:04,154
and he didn't even read them.

103
00:15:09,660 --> 00:15:12,746
(Lanzmann) He survived,
but is he really alive, or...?

104
00:15:37,855 --> 00:15:40,982
(Interpreter) At the time,
he felt as if he were dead,

105
00:15:41,108 --> 00:15:44,277
because he never thought
he'd survive,

106
00:15:44,403 --> 00:15:47,238
but... he's alive.

107
00:15:51,994 --> 00:15:54,537
(Lanzmann)
Why does he smile all the time?

108
00:16:04,131 --> 00:16:06,341
(Interpreter)
What do you want him to do, cry?

109
00:16:06,467 --> 00:16:08,468
Sometimes you smile,
sometimes you cry.

110
00:16:10,429 --> 00:16:13,056
And if you're alive, it's better to smile.

111
00:16:17,353 --> 00:16:21,648
(Lanzmann in French) Why was she
so curious about this story?

112
00:16:21,774 --> 00:16:25,235
(Female Interpreter ♪3 in Hebrew)

113
00:16:25,361 --> 00:16:27,362
(Speaking Hebrew)

114
00:16:29,198 --> 00:16:32,200
HANNA ZAIDL - ISRAEL

115
00:16:32,743 --> 00:16:36,746
DAUGHTER OF MOTKE ZAIDL,
SURVIVOR OF VILNA (LITHUANIA)

116
00:17:07,903 --> 00:17:10,613
(Interpreter ♪3 in French)
It's a long story.

117
00:17:10,739 --> 00:17:15,285
As a child,
I had little contact with my father.

118
00:17:15,411 --> 00:17:18,955
He went out to work,
and I didn't see much of him.

119
00:17:19,081 --> 00:17:22,667
Besides, he was a silent man,
he didn't talk to me.

120
00:17:22,793 --> 00:17:27,213
And when I grew up
and was strong enough to face him,

121
00:17:27,339 --> 00:17:30,925
I questioned him.
I never stopped questioning him

122
00:17:31,051 --> 00:17:35,221
until I got at the scraps oftruth
he couldn't tell me.

123
00:17:35,347 --> 00:17:39,058
It came out haltingly.

124
00:17:39,185 --> 00:17:41,227
I had to tear the details out of him,

125
00:17:41,353 --> 00:17:47,150
and finally,
when Mr. Lanzmann came,

126
00:17:47,276 --> 00:17:51,946
I heard the whole story
for the second time.

127
00:17:52,072 --> 00:17:53,656
MOTKE ZAIDL

128
00:17:55,576 --> 00:17:59,704
BEN SHEMEN FOREST, ISRAEL

129
00:18:04,585 --> 00:18:07,629
(Motke speaks Hebrew)

130
00:18:20,601 --> 00:18:24,854
(Interpreter ♪3 in French) The place
resembles Ponary: the forest, the ditches.

131
00:18:24,980 --> 00:18:28,066
It's as if the bodies were burned here.

132
00:18:28,192 --> 00:18:31,110
Except there were no stones in Ponary.

133
00:18:32,238 --> 00:18:36,157
PONARY: FOREST WHERE MOST
VILNA JEWS WERE MASSACRED

134
00:18:36,283 --> 00:18:41,329
(Lanzmann) But the Lithuanian forests
are denser than the Israeli forest, no?

135
00:18:41,455 --> 00:18:45,375
(Interpreter ♪3 speaks Hebrew)

136
00:18:45,501 --> 00:18:48,544
- (Motke replies)
- Of course.

137
00:18:48,671 --> 00:18:52,090
(Motke continues)

138
00:18:53,467 --> 00:18:58,304
(Interpreter) The trees are similar,
but taller and fuller in Lithuania.

139
00:18:59,348 --> 00:19:03,726
FOREST OF THE EXTERMINATION
CAMP AT SOBIBOR, POLAND

140
00:19:03,852 --> 00:19:07,438
(Lanzmann in French) Is there still
hunting here in Sobibor forest?

141
00:19:07,564 --> 00:19:10,775
(Interpreter ♪ 1 speaks Polish)

142
00:19:10,901 --> 00:19:13,987
(Man replies in Polish)

143
00:19:20,703 --> 00:19:25,164
(Interpreter) Yes, there are
lots of animals of all kinds.

144
00:19:28,168 --> 00:19:31,754
(Lanzmann)
Was there hunting then?

145
00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:34,841
(Man replies in Polish)

146
00:19:34,967 --> 00:19:38,219
(Interpreter) Only man hunting.

147
00:19:40,597 --> 00:19:42,140
JAN PIWONSKI

148
00:19:42,266 --> 00:19:44,350
(Speaks Polish)

149
00:19:59,616 --> 00:20:02,410
(Interpreter)
Some victims tried to escape.

150
00:20:07,916 --> 00:20:10,668
But they didn't know the area.

151
00:20:15,341 --> 00:20:20,094
At times people heard explosions
in the minefield.

152
00:20:20,220 --> 00:20:22,930
Sometimes they'd find a deer,

153
00:20:23,057 --> 00:20:26,559
and sometimes a poor Jew
who tried to escape.

154
00:20:40,491 --> 00:20:43,201
(Piwonski continues)

155
00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:53,711
That's the charm of our forests:
the silence and beauty.

156
00:21:02,971 --> 00:21:08,101
(Piwonski continues)

157
00:21:08,227 --> 00:21:11,562
But it wasn't always so silent here.

158
00:21:21,782 --> 00:21:26,160
There was a time
when it was full of screams

159
00:21:26,286 --> 00:21:27,787
and gunshots,

160
00:21:30,249 --> 00:21:31,749
of dogs' barking.

161
00:21:33,085 --> 00:21:35,378
(Piwonski continues)

162
00:21:43,762 --> 00:21:46,639
And that period especially

163
00:21:46,765 --> 00:21:49,434
is engraved on the minds of the people

164
00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:52,061
who lived here then.

165
00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:58,901
(Piwonski continues)

166
00:22:03,949 --> 00:22:09,036
After the revolt, the Germans
decided to liquidate the camp,

167
00:22:09,163 --> 00:22:11,497
and early in the winter of 1943,

168
00:22:11,623 --> 00:22:15,543
they planted pines that
were three or four years old

169
00:22:15,669 --> 00:22:17,795
to camouflage all the traces.

170
00:22:17,921 --> 00:22:19,338
That screen of trees?

171
00:22:19,465 --> 00:22:20,673
Yes.

172
00:22:20,799 --> 00:22:22,842
(Lanzmann)
That's where the mass graves were?

173
00:22:22,968 --> 00:22:25,219
(Interpreter ♪ 1 speaks Polish)

174
00:22:27,890 --> 00:22:29,348
Yes.

175
00:22:29,475 --> 00:22:31,809
(Piwonski continues)

176
00:22:41,111 --> 00:22:44,280
When he first came here in 1944,

177
00:22:44,406 --> 00:22:48,242
you couldn't guess
what had happened here,

178
00:22:48,368 --> 00:22:53,206
that these trees were hiding
the secret of a death camp.

179
00:22:57,252 --> 00:23:00,963
(Lanzmann) How did he react,
the first time he unloaded corpses,

180
00:23:01,089 --> 00:23:04,050
when the gas van doors were opened?

181
00:23:04,176 --> 00:23:06,761
(Interpreter ♪2 speaks Yiddish)

182
00:23:17,689 --> 00:23:20,274
What could he do? He cried.

183
00:23:28,951 --> 00:23:32,078
The third day,
he saw his wife and children.

184
00:23:53,100 --> 00:23:56,811
He placed his wife in the grave
and asked to be killed.

185
00:23:56,937 --> 00:23:59,855
The Germans said
he was strong enough to work,

186
00:23:59,982 --> 00:24:02,400
that he wouldn't be killed yet.

187
00:24:19,876 --> 00:24:21,961
(Lanzmann)
Was the weather very cold?

188
00:24:23,505 --> 00:24:25,756
(Interpreter ♪2 in Yiddish)

189
00:24:25,882 --> 00:24:28,467
(Podchlebnik replies)

190
00:24:31,096 --> 00:24:36,225
It was in the winter of 1942,
in early January.

191
00:24:39,855 --> 00:24:43,899
(Lanzmann) At that time,
the bodies weren't burned, just buried?

192
00:24:45,902 --> 00:24:48,029
(Interpreter ♪2 in Yiddish)

193
00:24:51,116 --> 00:24:52,992
(Podchlebnik replies)

194
00:25:10,844 --> 00:25:15,056
No, they were buried,
and each row was covered with dirt.

195
00:25:15,182 --> 00:25:17,183
They weren't being burned yet.

196
00:25:17,309 --> 00:25:19,560
There were around four or five layers.

197
00:25:19,686 --> 00:25:22,563
The ditches were funnel-shaped.

198
00:25:23,023 --> 00:25:25,316
(Podchlebnik continues)

199
00:25:31,406 --> 00:25:34,617
They dumped the bodies
in these ditches,

200
00:25:34,743 --> 00:25:38,829
and they had to lay them out
like herrings, head to foot.

201
00:25:49,341 --> 00:25:54,387
(Lanzmann) So it was they who dug up
and burned all the Jews of Vilna?

202
00:25:55,055 --> 00:25:56,055
Yes.

203
00:25:56,056 --> 00:25:59,141
(Man speaks Hebrew)

204
00:26:00,769 --> 00:26:03,396
(Interpreter ♪3 in French)
In early January 1944,

205
00:26:03,522 --> 00:26:06,065
we began digging up the bodies.

206
00:26:07,275 --> 00:26:09,318
(Man continues)

207
00:26:16,910 --> 00:26:19,745
When the last mass grave was opened,

208
00:26:20,247 --> 00:26:22,498
I recognised my whole family.

209
00:26:25,544 --> 00:26:28,337
(Lanzmann in French)
Whom in his family did he recognise?

210
00:26:28,463 --> 00:26:30,798
(Interpreter ♪3 in Hebrew)

211
00:26:40,100 --> 00:26:43,269
Mum and my sisters.
Three sisters with their kids.

212
00:26:43,395 --> 00:26:45,688
They were all in there.

213
00:26:46,189 --> 00:26:48,315
(Lanzmann)
How could he recognise them?

214
00:26:50,819 --> 00:26:53,362
ITZHAK DUGIN:
SURVIVOR OF VILNA

215
00:27:15,635 --> 00:27:18,429
They'd been in the earth 4 months,

216
00:27:18,555 --> 00:27:20,890
and it was winter.

217
00:27:21,016 --> 00:27:22,808
They were very well preserved.

218
00:27:22,934 --> 00:27:26,771
I recognised their faces,
their clothes too.

219
00:27:27,939 --> 00:27:30,941
(Lanzmann)
They'd been killed relatively recently?

220
00:27:31,067 --> 00:27:35,905
(Interpreter ♪3 speaking Hebrew)

221
00:27:37,991 --> 00:27:39,533
Yes.

222
00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:43,204
(Lanzmann)
And it was the last grave?

223
00:27:43,705 --> 00:27:46,248
(Interpreter ♪3 in Hebrew)

224
00:27:46,374 --> 00:27:48,667
- (Dugin replies)
- Yes.

225
00:27:50,212 --> 00:27:54,048
(Lanzmann) The Nazi plan was
for them to open the graves

226
00:27:54,174 --> 00:27:56,133
starting with the oldest?

227
00:27:57,052 --> 00:27:59,595
(Interpreter ♪3 in Hebrew)

228
00:28:09,439 --> 00:28:10,856
Yes.

229
00:28:41,179 --> 00:28:44,139
The last graves were the newest,

230
00:28:44,266 --> 00:28:48,936
and we started with the oldest,
those of the first ghetto.

231
00:28:49,062 --> 00:28:52,064
In the first grave,
there were 24,000 bodies.

232
00:28:57,028 --> 00:29:00,030
(Motke speaks Hebrew)

233
00:29:04,494 --> 00:29:08,581
(Interpreter ♪3) The deeper you dug,
the flatter the bodies were.

234
00:29:08,707 --> 00:29:11,584
Each was almost a flat slab.

235
00:29:11,710 --> 00:29:15,546
(Motke continues)

236
00:29:15,672 --> 00:29:19,383
When you tried to grasp a body,
it crumbled,

237
00:29:19,509 --> 00:29:21,760
it was impossible to pick them up.

238
00:29:30,061 --> 00:29:34,481
We had to open the graves,
but without tools.

239
00:29:34,608 --> 00:29:38,319
They said, "Get used to working
with your hands."

240
00:29:38,445 --> 00:29:41,030
(Lanzmann)
With just their hands?

241
00:29:41,781 --> 00:29:43,824
(Interpreter ♪3 in Hebrew)

242
00:29:44,659 --> 00:29:45,659
Yes.

243
00:30:04,804 --> 00:30:07,014
When we first opened the graves,

244
00:30:07,140 --> 00:30:10,559
we couldn't help it,
we all burst out sobbing.

245
00:30:10,685 --> 00:30:15,439
But the Germans almost
beat us to death.

246
00:30:15,565 --> 00:30:19,318
We had to work
at a killing pace for two days,

247
00:30:19,444 --> 00:30:22,196
beaten all the time, and with no tools.

248
00:30:23,907 --> 00:30:25,449
(Lanzmann)
They all burst out sobbing?

249
00:30:25,575 --> 00:30:27,701
(Interpreter ♪3 in Hebrew)

250
00:30:32,123 --> 00:30:34,124
(Motke continues)

251
00:30:48,765 --> 00:30:51,183
The Germans even forbade us

252
00:30:51,309 --> 00:30:54,853
to use the words "corpse" or "victim."

253
00:30:54,980 --> 00:30:58,649
The dead were blocks of wood, shit,

254
00:30:58,775 --> 00:31:01,819
with absolutely no importance...

255
00:31:04,030 --> 00:31:08,742
(Dugin speaks Hebrew)

256
00:31:08,868 --> 00:31:12,496
Anyone who said "corpse"
or "victim" was beaten.

257
00:31:13,665 --> 00:31:18,627
(Dugin continues)

258
00:31:18,753 --> 00:31:23,799
The Germans made us
refer to the bodies as "Figuren,"

259
00:31:23,925 --> 00:31:26,760
that is, as puppets, as dolls...

260
00:31:27,470 --> 00:31:30,139
- Schmattes.
- As "Schmattes," which means "rags."

261
00:31:32,892 --> 00:31:34,893
(Lanzmann)
Were they told at the start

262
00:31:35,020 --> 00:31:38,105
how many "Figuren"
there were in all the graves?

263
00:31:38,231 --> 00:31:42,026
(Interpreter ♪3 in Hebrew)

264
00:31:42,152 --> 00:31:44,403
(Motke replies)

265
00:31:53,788 --> 00:31:56,707
The head of the Vilna Gestapo told us,

266
00:31:56,833 --> 00:32:00,419
"There are 90,000 people lying there,

267
00:32:00,545 --> 00:32:03,589
and absolutely no trace
must be left of them."

268
00:32:10,638 --> 00:32:14,516
(In German)
It was at the end of November 1942.

269
00:32:16,519 --> 00:32:21,356
They chased us away from our work

270
00:32:22,859 --> 00:32:25,611
and back to our barracks.

271
00:32:25,737 --> 00:32:27,654
Suddenly,

272
00:32:28,740 --> 00:32:36,163
from the part of the camp called

273
00:32:37,290 --> 00:32:41,919
the death camp,

274
00:32:44,047 --> 00:32:46,215
flames shot up very high.

275
00:32:48,343 --> 00:32:54,098
In a flash, the whole countryside,

276
00:32:54,224 --> 00:32:58,060
the whole camp seemed ablaze.

277
00:33:00,814 --> 00:33:02,731
It was already dark.

278
00:33:05,985 --> 00:33:09,988
We went into our barracks

279
00:33:11,741 --> 00:33:13,826
and ate...

280
00:33:14,327 --> 00:33:19,331
And from the window,

281
00:33:19,457 --> 00:33:25,254
we kept on watching
the fantastic backdrop of flames

282
00:33:25,380 --> 00:33:27,881
of every imaginable colour,

283
00:33:29,134 --> 00:33:32,845
red, yellow, green, purple.

284
00:33:32,971 --> 00:33:40,971
And suddenly one of us stood up.

285
00:33:42,021 --> 00:33:48,235
We knew he'd been
an opera singer in Warsaw.

286
00:33:50,196 --> 00:33:54,408
His name was Salve, and...

287
00:33:54,534 --> 00:33:56,702
- (Lanzmann) Salve?
- Salve.

288
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:03,000
Facing that curtain of fire,

289
00:34:03,126 --> 00:34:07,337
he began chanting a song

290
00:34:07,463 --> 00:34:10,966
I didn't know:

291
00:34:11,843 --> 00:34:13,635
"My God, my God,

292
00:34:15,388 --> 00:34:18,182
why hast Thou forsaken us?"

293
00:34:18,308 --> 00:34:22,394
RICHARD GLAZAR -
BASEL, SWITZERLAND

294
00:34:24,439 --> 00:34:29,318
"We have been thrust
into the fire before,

295
00:34:29,444 --> 00:34:34,948
but we have never denied
Thy Holy Law."

296
00:34:36,701 --> 00:34:40,287
He sang in Yiddish,

297
00:34:40,413 --> 00:34:42,748
while, behind him,

298
00:34:42,874 --> 00:34:47,920
blazed the pyres

299
00:34:48,630 --> 00:34:54,968
on which they had begun then,
in November 1942,

300
00:34:55,094 --> 00:34:58,222
to burn the bodies in Treblinka.

301
00:34:59,933 --> 00:35:04,937
That was the first time it happened.

302
00:35:06,522 --> 00:35:08,440
We knew that night

303
00:35:08,566 --> 00:35:12,778
that the dead would no longer
be buried,

304
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:16,281
they'd be burned.

305
00:35:16,783 --> 00:35:19,451
TREBLINKA

306
00:35:45,853 --> 00:35:50,565
(Interpreter) When things were ready,
they poured on fuel

307
00:35:50,692 --> 00:35:52,734
and touched off the fire.

308
00:35:52,860 --> 00:35:55,195
They waited for a high wind.

309
00:35:55,321 --> 00:35:59,241
The pyres usually burned
for 7 or 8 days.

310
00:36:06,708 --> 00:36:10,919
(Srebnik) There was a concrete platform
some distance away,

311
00:36:12,130 --> 00:36:15,132
and the bones that hadn't burned,

312
00:36:15,258 --> 00:36:17,884
the big bones of the feet, for example,

313
00:36:18,011 --> 00:36:20,429
we took...

314
00:36:21,597 --> 00:36:25,100
There was a chest with two handles.

315
00:36:25,226 --> 00:36:28,228
We carried the bones there,

316
00:36:28,354 --> 00:36:34,526
where others had to crush them.

317
00:36:34,652 --> 00:36:37,404
It was very fine,

318
00:36:38,656 --> 00:36:41,450
that powdered bone.

319
00:36:41,576 --> 00:36:44,828
Then it was put into sacks,

320
00:36:45,663 --> 00:36:49,833
and when there were enough sacks,

321
00:36:49,959 --> 00:36:54,921
we went to a bridge on the Narew river

322
00:36:55,048 --> 00:36:57,549
and dumped the powder.

323
00:36:57,675 --> 00:36:59,468
The current carried it off.

324
00:37:01,888 --> 00:37:04,348
It drifted downstream.

325
00:37:12,065 --> 00:37:15,776
(♪Srebnik sings in Polish:
"Little White House")

326
00:37:38,633 --> 00:37:41,718
(Lanzmann in English)
You never returned to Poland since?

327
00:37:41,844 --> 00:37:43,553
(Woman) No.

328
00:37:43,679 --> 00:37:46,139
I wanted many times.

329
00:37:46,808 --> 00:37:50,560
But what will I see?

330
00:37:53,523 --> 00:37:55,816
How can I face it?

331
00:38:00,571 --> 00:38:03,907
My grandparents are buried in Lodz.

332
00:38:04,033 --> 00:38:08,161
And, at one point, I heard
from somebody that visited Poland

333
00:38:08,287 --> 00:38:11,998
that they want to level off the cemetery,

334
00:38:12,125 --> 00:38:14,167
do away with the cemetery.

335
00:38:14,293 --> 00:38:17,337
Now how can I return to that, to visit?

336
00:38:19,549 --> 00:38:22,134
(Lanzmann)
When did they die, your grandparents?

337
00:38:23,010 --> 00:38:25,303
- My grandparents?
- Mm-hmm.

338
00:38:25,430 --> 00:38:27,931
My grandparents died in the ghetto,
quickly.

339
00:38:28,057 --> 00:38:30,767
They were elderly,
and within a couple years...

340
00:38:30,893 --> 00:38:34,521
Within a year, my grandfather died.
And my grandmother the next year.

341
00:38:34,647 --> 00:38:36,231
In the ghetto, yes.

342
00:38:38,276 --> 00:38:42,362
PAULA BIREN - CINCINNATI, USA
SURVIVOR OF AUSCHWITZ

343
00:38:49,454 --> 00:38:53,248
THE JEWISH CEMETERY
IN LODZ TODAY

344
00:38:56,419 --> 00:38:58,712
(Crows cawing)

345
00:39:24,447 --> 00:39:26,114
(Church bells ringing)

346
00:39:26,240 --> 00:39:28,575
AUSCHWITZ: THE TOWN

347
00:39:29,368 --> 00:39:33,330
(Lanzmann in French)
Mrs. Pietyra, you live in Auschwitz?

348
00:39:33,456 --> 00:39:35,874
(Interpreter ♪ 1 and Pietyra
speak in Polish)

349
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:38,126
(Interpreter in French)
Yes, I was born here.

350
00:39:38,252 --> 00:39:40,212
(Lanzmann)
And you've never left Auschwitz?

351
00:39:40,338 --> 00:39:42,422
(Speaking Polish)

352
00:39:42,548 --> 00:39:44,132
No, never.

353
00:39:44,258 --> 00:39:47,093
(Lanzmann) Were there Jews
in Auschwitz before the war?

354
00:39:52,892 --> 00:39:55,477
(Interpreter) They made up
80% of the population.

355
00:39:58,314 --> 00:39:59,648
(Speaking Polish)

356
00:39:59,774 --> 00:40:02,234
They even had a synagogue here.

357
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:04,110
(Lanzmann) Just one?

358
00:40:06,072 --> 00:40:08,240
- Just one, I think.
- (Lanzmann) Does it still exist?

359
00:40:13,079 --> 00:40:14,996
No, it was wrecked.

360
00:40:15,122 --> 00:40:17,541
There's something else there now.

361
00:40:17,667 --> 00:40:19,918
(Lanzmann) Was there
a Jewish cemetery in Auschwitz?

362
00:40:20,044 --> 00:40:22,671
(Interpreter ♪ 1 speaking Polish)

363
00:40:26,509 --> 00:40:30,053
It still exists. It's closed now.

364
00:40:30,179 --> 00:40:32,764
- It still exists?
- Yes.

365
00:40:36,852 --> 00:40:38,937
(Lanzmann) Closed?
What does that mean?

366
00:40:42,483 --> 00:40:44,985
They don't bury there now.

367
00:40:46,529 --> 00:40:49,406
(♪Congregation sings Polish hymn)

368
00:41:05,172 --> 00:41:07,382
(Lanzmann in French)
Was there a synagogue in Wlodawa?

369
00:41:08,467 --> 00:41:10,343
(Speaking Polish)

370
00:41:10,469 --> 00:41:13,054
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in French)
Yes, and it's very beautiful.

371
00:41:13,180 --> 00:41:18,059
(Speaking Polish)

372
00:41:18,185 --> 00:41:21,146
When Poland was ruled by the czars,

373
00:41:21,272 --> 00:41:23,857
that synagogue already existed.

374
00:41:26,527 --> 00:41:30,155
It's even older than the Catholic church.

375
00:41:30,281 --> 00:41:34,576
(Continues in Polish)

376
00:41:59,226 --> 00:42:02,020
It's no longer used.

377
00:42:02,146 --> 00:42:04,564
(Man continues)

378
00:42:04,690 --> 00:42:06,650
There's no one to go to it.

379
00:42:14,033 --> 00:42:16,701
(Lanzmann in French)
These buildings haven't changed?

380
00:42:16,827 --> 00:42:18,828
(Speaking Polish)

381
00:42:22,875 --> 00:42:26,378
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in French) Not at all.
There were barrels of herrings here,

382
00:42:26,504 --> 00:42:28,505
and the Jews sold fish.

383
00:42:30,091 --> 00:42:32,926
There were stalls, small shops,

384
00:42:33,052 --> 00:42:36,012
Jewish business,
as the gentleman says.

385
00:42:38,307 --> 00:42:41,685
- (Man continues)
- That's Barenholz's house.

386
00:42:41,811 --> 00:42:44,479
- (Man continues)
- He sold wood.

387
00:42:44,605 --> 00:42:46,564
(Man continues)

388
00:42:50,945 --> 00:42:53,321
Lipschitz's store was there.
He sold cloth.

389
00:42:53,447 --> 00:42:55,365
(Lanzmann) This was Lichtenstein's.

390
00:42:55,491 --> 00:42:56,950
(Interpreter ♪ 1) Lichtenstein, yes.

391
00:42:57,076 --> 00:42:59,494
(Lanzmann)
What was there, opposite?

392
00:43:01,747 --> 00:43:03,832
A food store.

393
00:43:03,958 --> 00:43:06,418
(Lanzmann) A Jewish store?

394
00:43:06,544 --> 00:43:08,044
(Interpreter ♪ 1) Yes.

395
00:43:09,922 --> 00:43:12,173
There was a notions shop here,

396
00:43:12,299 --> 00:43:15,969
it sold thread, needles,
odds and ends,

397
00:43:19,306 --> 00:43:21,808
and there were also three barbers.

398
00:43:22,977 --> 00:43:25,437
PAN FILIPOWICZ

399
00:43:26,355 --> 00:43:29,235
- (Lanzmann) Was that fine house Jewish?
- (Interpreter ♪ 1) It's Jewish.

400
00:43:29,859 --> 00:43:32,819
- And this small one?
- Also.

401
00:43:32,945 --> 00:43:37,073
- And the one behind it?
- These were all Jewish.

402
00:43:37,199 --> 00:43:42,203
- This one on the left, too?
- That one too.

403
00:43:43,497 --> 00:43:47,125
(Lanzmann) Who lived in it? Borenstein?
(Filipowicz) Borenstein.

404
00:43:47,251 --> 00:43:51,755
- (Filipowicz continues)
- He was in the cement business.

405
00:43:51,881 --> 00:43:54,424
He was very handsome,
and cultivated.

406
00:43:56,051 --> 00:43:58,219
(Filipowicz continues)

407
00:43:58,345 --> 00:44:01,473
Here there was a blacksmith
named Tepper.

408
00:44:01,599 --> 00:44:03,725
It was a Jewish house.

409
00:44:04,852 --> 00:44:06,686
A shoemaker lived here.

410
00:44:06,812 --> 00:44:10,774
(Lanzmann) What was his name?
(Filipowicz) Yankel.

411
00:44:12,777 --> 00:44:15,695
(Lanzmann) You get the feeling
Wlodawa was a Jewish city.

412
00:44:15,821 --> 00:44:19,073
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)

413
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:21,576
- (Filipowicz replies)
- Yes, because it's true.

414
00:44:21,702 --> 00:44:23,161
(Filipowicz continues)

415
00:44:23,287 --> 00:44:27,290
The Poles lived farther out,
the centre was wholly Jewish.

416
00:44:29,168 --> 00:44:31,628
(Lanzmann in French) What happened
to the Jews of Auschwitz?

417
00:44:31,754 --> 00:44:37,634
(Interpreter ♪ 1 and Pietyra
speak Polish)

418
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:40,845
They were expelled and resettled,

419
00:44:40,971 --> 00:44:43,014
but I don't know where.

420
00:44:43,140 --> 00:44:45,099
(Lanzmann) What year was that?

421
00:44:45,226 --> 00:44:48,394
(Pietyra replies)

422
00:44:48,521 --> 00:44:53,733
It began in 1940,
which was when I moved here.

423
00:44:53,859 --> 00:44:56,319
This apartment also belonged to Jews.

424
00:44:57,154 --> 00:45:00,740
(Lanzmann)
According to our information,

425
00:45:00,866 --> 00:45:05,245
the Auschwitz Jews were "resettled,"
as they say,

426
00:45:05,371 --> 00:45:09,791
nearby, in Benzin
and Sosnowiec, in Upper Silesia.

427
00:45:12,253 --> 00:45:14,879
(Interpreter ♪ 1)
Yes, because those were Jewish towns.

428
00:45:15,005 --> 00:45:19,509
(Lanzmann) Does she know what
happened to the Jews of Auschwitz?

429
00:45:19,635 --> 00:45:22,887
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)

430
00:45:25,349 --> 00:45:28,309
I think they all ended up in the camp.

431
00:45:28,435 --> 00:45:31,437
(Lanzmann) That is,
they returned to Auschwitz?

432
00:45:32,231 --> 00:45:33,356
Yes.

433
00:45:35,734 --> 00:45:39,779
AUSCHWITZ - BIRKENAU

434
00:45:47,288 --> 00:45:49,289
(Pietyra continues)

435
00:45:52,668 --> 00:45:58,006
All kinds of people from everywhere
were sent here.

436
00:45:58,757 --> 00:46:01,968
All the Jews came here... to die.

437
00:46:10,352 --> 00:46:12,103
(Lanzmann) What did they think

438
00:46:12,229 --> 00:46:14,856
when Wlodawa's Jews were
all deported to Sobibor?

439
00:46:14,982 --> 00:46:17,317
(Speaking Polish)

440
00:46:17,860 --> 00:46:21,946
WLODAWA - SOBIBOR:
10 MILES

441
00:46:28,871 --> 00:46:31,080
(In French) What could we think?

442
00:46:31,206 --> 00:46:37,045
That it was the end of them,
but they had foreseen that.

443
00:46:37,171 --> 00:46:38,838
(Lanzmann) How so?

444
00:46:38,964 --> 00:46:40,548
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)

445
00:46:55,230 --> 00:46:58,358
Even before the war,
when you talked to the Jews,

446
00:46:58,484 --> 00:47:00,276
they foresaw their doom.

447
00:47:00,402 --> 00:47:01,819
He doesn't know how.

448
00:47:01,946 --> 00:47:04,781
Even before the war,
they had a premonition.

449
00:47:15,084 --> 00:47:17,627
(Lanzmann) How were they taken
to Sobibor? On foot?

450
00:47:18,087 --> 00:47:20,004
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)

451
00:47:20,130 --> 00:47:24,050
(Filipowicz replies)

452
00:47:24,176 --> 00:47:27,595
It was frightful.
He watched it himself.

453
00:47:27,721 --> 00:47:30,682
(Filipowicz continues)

454
00:47:30,808 --> 00:47:35,061
They were herded on foot
to a station called Orkrobek.

455
00:47:35,187 --> 00:47:38,064
(Train clacking)

456
00:47:38,774 --> 00:47:44,028
(Filipowicz continues)

457
00:47:44,154 --> 00:47:50,243
There, they put the old people first
into waiting cattle cars...

458
00:47:53,372 --> 00:47:55,540
...then the younger Jews...

459
00:47:59,211 --> 00:48:01,421
...and finally the kids.

460
00:48:01,547 --> 00:48:06,259
That was the worst:
They threw them on top of the others.

461
00:48:43,464 --> 00:48:45,798
(Lanzmann)
Were there a lot of Jews in Kolo?

462
00:48:45,924 --> 00:48:47,842
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)

463
00:48:47,968 --> 00:48:50,219
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in French)
A great many.

464
00:48:50,345 --> 00:48:53,973
- (Man continues)
- More Jews than Poles.

465
00:48:54,975 --> 00:48:57,935
(Lanzmann)
And what happened to the Kolo Jews?

466
00:48:58,062 --> 00:49:00,021
Was he an eyewitness?

467
00:49:00,606 --> 00:49:02,523
PAN FALBORSKI

468
00:49:02,649 --> 00:49:04,650
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)

469
00:49:04,777 --> 00:49:07,904
Yes. It was frightful.

470
00:49:24,505 --> 00:49:25,630
Frightful to see.

471
00:49:25,756 --> 00:49:28,591
Even the Germans hid,
they couldn't see that.

472
00:49:28,717 --> 00:49:33,096
When the Jews were herded
to the station, they were beaten,

473
00:49:33,222 --> 00:49:34,639
some were even killed.

474
00:49:34,765 --> 00:49:40,603
A cart followed the convoy
to pick up the corpses.

475
00:49:40,729 --> 00:49:43,439
(Lanzmann)
Those who couldn't walk, the slain?

476
00:49:43,565 --> 00:49:45,399
Yes, those who'd fallen.

477
00:49:45,526 --> 00:49:47,735
Where did this happen?

478
00:49:49,655 --> 00:49:51,614
(Speaks Polish)

479
00:50:07,673 --> 00:50:12,218
The Jews were collected
in the Kolo synagogue.

480
00:50:12,344 --> 00:50:15,555
Then they were herded to the station,

481
00:50:15,681 --> 00:50:19,725
where the narrow-gauge railway
went to Chelmno.

482
00:50:28,193 --> 00:50:32,238
(Lanzmann) It happened to all the Jews
in the area, not just in Kolo?

483
00:50:33,240 --> 00:50:35,199
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)

484
00:50:38,078 --> 00:50:39,620
(Falborski replies)

485
00:50:39,746 --> 00:50:41,247
Absolutely.

486
00:50:41,748 --> 00:50:44,667
- Everywhere.
- (Falborski continues)

487
00:50:48,213 --> 00:50:50,798
Jews were also murdered
in the forests

488
00:50:50,924 --> 00:50:53,426
near Kalisz, not far from here.

489
00:51:05,731 --> 00:51:08,149
(Locomotive chugging)

490
00:51:10,527 --> 00:51:13,321
(Train whistle blows)

491
00:53:13,734 --> 00:53:15,860
(Man in English)
There was a sign.

492
00:53:15,986 --> 00:53:20,865
There was a small sign
on the station of Treblinka.

493
00:53:21,366 --> 00:53:26,120
I don't know if we were at the station
or if we did not go up to the station.

494
00:53:26,246 --> 00:53:28,831
ABRAHAM BOMBA - TEL AVIV, ISRAEL
SURVIVOR OF TREBLINKA

495
00:53:28,957 --> 00:53:31,625
On the line over there
where we stayed,

496
00:53:31,752 --> 00:53:35,838
there was a small sign, very small sign,
which say "Treblinka."

497
00:53:35,964 --> 00:53:40,885
That was the first time in my life
I heard about that name "Treblinka,"

498
00:53:41,011 --> 00:53:43,554
because nobody know.

499
00:53:44,056 --> 00:53:47,725
It is not a place.
There is not a city.

500
00:53:47,851 --> 00:53:50,770
Or it is not even a small village.

501
00:53:53,231 --> 00:53:57,276
TREBLINKA BY ROAD

502
00:53:59,571 --> 00:54:02,948
Jewish people always dreamed,

503
00:54:03,075 --> 00:54:05,326
and that was part of their life.

504
00:54:05,452 --> 00:54:07,495
It was part of their messiah,

505
00:54:07,621 --> 00:54:12,875
to dream that someday
they're going to be free.

506
00:54:14,127 --> 00:54:18,672
That dream was mostly true
in the ghetto.

507
00:54:20,133 --> 00:54:22,760
Every day, every single night,

508
00:54:22,886 --> 00:54:26,013
I dreamed about a thing
that's going to be good.

509
00:54:27,849 --> 00:54:29,266
Not only the dream,

510
00:54:29,393 --> 00:54:33,646
but the hope conserved in a dream.

511
00:54:41,029 --> 00:54:45,032
The first transport from Czestochowa

512
00:54:45,158 --> 00:54:48,536
was sent away at the day
of the Yom Kippur.

513
00:54:49,538 --> 00:54:54,375
The day before Sukkoth,
there was the second transport.

514
00:54:54,501 --> 00:54:56,794
I was together with them.

515
00:54:59,131 --> 00:55:03,926
I know, only in my heart I know,
that there's something that is not good,

516
00:55:04,052 --> 00:55:06,011
because, if they take children,

517
00:55:06,138 --> 00:55:08,681
if they take old people
and they send them away,

518
00:55:08,807 --> 00:55:11,225
that means it is not good.

519
00:55:11,351 --> 00:55:16,230
What they said is they'd take them away
to a place where they would be working.

520
00:55:16,898 --> 00:55:18,732
But, on the other hand,

521
00:55:18,859 --> 00:55:23,028
an old woman or a little child
from a week or four weeks or five years,

522
00:55:23,155 --> 00:55:25,197
what is he going to work?

523
00:55:26,450 --> 00:55:29,785
That was a foolish thing,
but, still, we had no choice.

524
00:55:29,911 --> 00:55:31,787
We believed in that.

525
00:55:53,185 --> 00:55:55,936
(Man speaks Polish)
(Interpreter) He was born here...

526
00:55:56,062 --> 00:55:58,522
in 1923...

527
00:55:58,648 --> 00:56:01,650
and has been here ever since.

528
00:56:03,570 --> 00:56:05,988
(Lanzmann in French)
He lived at this very spot?

529
00:56:06,114 --> 00:56:07,698
(Interpreter) Right here.

530
00:56:07,824 --> 00:56:10,868
(Lanzmann) Then he had
a front-row seat for what happened.

531
00:56:10,994 --> 00:56:15,206
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)

532
00:56:15,332 --> 00:56:18,042
- (Man replies)
- Naturally.

533
00:56:18,168 --> 00:56:21,378
(Man continues)

534
00:56:21,505 --> 00:56:26,217
You could go up close
or watch from a distance.

535
00:56:27,177 --> 00:56:30,221
CZESLAW BOROWI

536
00:56:34,100 --> 00:56:37,061
They had land
on the far side of the station.

537
00:56:37,187 --> 00:56:40,564
To work it, he had to cross the track,

538
00:56:40,690 --> 00:56:42,691
so he could see everything.

539
00:56:47,948 --> 00:56:52,743
(Lanzmann) Does he remember
the first convoy of Jews from Warsaw

540
00:56:52,869 --> 00:56:55,746
on July 22, 1942?

541
00:56:55,872 --> 00:56:57,289
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)

542
00:56:57,415 --> 00:57:00,751
(Borowi speaks in Polish)

543
00:57:04,047 --> 00:57:06,257
He recalls the first convoy very well...

544
00:57:08,093 --> 00:57:10,844
...and when all those Jews
were brought here.

545
00:57:15,559 --> 00:57:19,019
People wondered,
"What's to be done with them?"

546
00:57:22,190 --> 00:57:26,277
Clearly, they'd be killed,
but no one yet knew how.

547
00:57:38,331 --> 00:57:42,793
When people began
to understand what was happening,

548
00:57:43,336 --> 00:57:44,795
they were appalled,

549
00:57:44,921 --> 00:57:50,050
and they commented privately
that since the world began,

550
00:57:50,176 --> 00:57:53,804
no one had ever murdered
so many people that way.

551
00:57:59,311 --> 00:58:02,479
(Lanzmann) While all this was
happening before their eyes,

552
00:58:02,606 --> 00:58:04,315
normal life went on?

553
00:58:04,441 --> 00:58:09,737
- They worked their fields?
- (Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)

554
00:58:09,863 --> 00:58:13,407
(Borowi replies)

555
00:58:29,591 --> 00:58:31,342
Certainly they worked,

556
00:58:31,468 --> 00:58:36,221
but not as willingly as usual.

557
00:58:36,890 --> 00:58:38,766
They had to work,

558
00:58:38,892 --> 00:58:41,435
but when they saw all this,
they thought,

559
00:58:41,561 --> 00:58:45,022
"What if our house is surrounded
and we're arrested?"

560
00:58:47,776 --> 00:58:50,110
(Lanzmann) Were they afraid
for the Jews, too?

561
00:59:22,143 --> 00:59:24,019
Well, he says it's this way...

562
00:59:24,145 --> 00:59:28,732
If I cut my finger, it doesn't hurt him.

563
00:59:28,858 --> 00:59:31,151
They saw what happened to the Jews,

564
00:59:31,277 --> 00:59:35,906
the convoy came in
and then went to the camp,

565
00:59:36,658 --> 00:59:38,826
and the people vanished.

566
00:59:38,952 --> 00:59:40,828
(Speak Polish)

567
00:59:40,954 --> 00:59:45,249
(Interpreter ♪ 1) He had a field
less than 100 yards from the camp.

568
00:59:47,877 --> 00:59:50,629
He also worked
during the German occupation.

569
00:59:50,755 --> 00:59:53,173
(Lanzmann) He worked his field?
(Interpreter ♪ 1) Yes.

570
00:59:53,842 --> 00:59:58,345
He saw how they were asphyxiated,

571
00:59:58,471 --> 01:00:01,765
he heard them scream, he saw that.

572
01:00:01,891 --> 01:00:06,437
There's a small hill.
He could see quite a bit.

573
01:00:08,273 --> 01:00:10,733
- (Laughter)
- (Lanzmann) What did he say?

574
01:00:10,859 --> 01:00:12,609
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)

575
01:00:14,487 --> 01:00:17,197
They couldn't stop and watch.

576
01:00:17,699 --> 01:00:20,659
It was forbidden.
The Ukrainians shot at them.

577
01:00:20,785 --> 01:00:24,913
(Lanzmann) But they could work
a field 100 yards from the camp?

578
01:00:26,791 --> 01:00:29,918
They could.

579
01:00:30,044 --> 01:00:33,213
So occasionally
he could steal a glance,

580
01:00:33,339 --> 01:00:35,549
if the Ukrainians weren't looking.

581
01:00:35,675 --> 01:00:38,135
(Lanzmann)
He worked with his eyes lowered?

582
01:00:41,347 --> 01:00:42,556
Yes.

583
01:00:43,057 --> 01:00:45,058
(Speaks Polish)

584
01:00:47,520 --> 01:00:51,356
He worked by the barbed wire
and heard awful screams.

585
01:00:51,483 --> 01:00:54,401
(Lanzmann) His field was there?

586
01:00:55,361 --> 01:00:57,237
(Interpreter) Yes, right up close.

587
01:00:58,406 --> 01:01:00,824
It wasn't forbidden to work there.

588
01:01:01,785 --> 01:01:05,329
(Lanzmann) So he worked,
he farmed there?

589
01:01:08,875 --> 01:01:10,125
(Interpreter) Yes.

590
01:01:11,085 --> 01:01:15,047
Where the camp is now
was partly his field.

591
01:01:18,092 --> 01:01:20,594
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)

592
01:01:27,435 --> 01:01:30,312
It was off limits,
but they heard everything.

593
01:01:30,438 --> 01:01:33,899
(Lanzmann) It didn't bother him
to work so near those screams?

594
01:01:34,025 --> 01:01:38,195
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)

595
01:01:42,826 --> 01:01:46,370
At first it was unbearable.
Then you got used to it.

596
01:01:46,830 --> 01:01:50,332
(Lanzmann) You get used to anything?

597
01:01:52,001 --> 01:01:53,085
Yes.

598
01:01:56,506 --> 01:02:00,175
Now he thinks... it's impossible.

599
01:02:00,301 --> 01:02:01,969
Yet it was true.

600
01:02:27,370 --> 01:02:30,205
(Speaking in Polish)

601
01:02:30,874 --> 01:02:33,709
So he saw the convoys arriving.

602
01:02:34,210 --> 01:02:38,589
There were 60 to 80 cars
in each convoy,

603
01:02:38,715 --> 01:02:41,508
and there were two locomotives

604
01:02:41,634 --> 01:02:45,429
that took the convoys into the camp,

605
01:02:45,555 --> 01:02:49,516
taking 20 cars at a time.

606
01:02:50,393 --> 01:02:52,853
And the cars came back empty?

607
01:02:52,979 --> 01:02:55,147
(Speaking Polish)

608
01:02:56,316 --> 01:02:58,191
- Yes.
- Does he remember...?

609
01:03:02,947 --> 01:03:04,656
Here's how it happened.

610
01:03:04,782 --> 01:03:07,284
The locomotive picked up 20 cars

611
01:03:08,995 --> 01:03:11,163
and took them to the camp.

612
01:03:11,289 --> 01:03:14,791
That took maybe an hour,

613
01:03:20,715 --> 01:03:22,758
and the empty cars came back here.

614
01:03:22,884 --> 01:03:24,968
Then the next 20 cars were taken,

615
01:03:25,094 --> 01:03:29,640
and meanwhile, the people
in the first 20 were already dead.

616
01:03:41,527 --> 01:03:43,195
(Man speaks Polish)

617
01:03:43,321 --> 01:03:45,238
(Interpreter ♪ 1)
They waited, they wept...

618
01:03:45,365 --> 01:03:49,368
...they asked for water, they died.

619
01:03:51,412 --> 01:03:57,501
Sometimes they were naked
in the cars, up to 170 people.

620
01:03:59,087 --> 01:04:02,422
(Interpreter) This is where
they gave the Jews water, he says.

621
01:04:02,548 --> 01:04:04,007
(Lanzmann) Where was that?

622
01:04:04,133 --> 01:04:05,926
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)

623
01:04:06,052 --> 01:04:10,764
Here. When the convoys arrived,
they gave water to the Jews.

624
01:04:10,890 --> 01:04:13,475
(Lanzmann) Who gave the Jews water?

625
01:04:14,894 --> 01:04:16,937
We did, the Poles.

626
01:04:17,981 --> 01:04:22,109
There was a tiny well,
we took a bottle and...

627
01:04:22,235 --> 01:04:26,279
(Lanzmann) Wasn't it dangerous
to give them water?

628
01:04:26,906 --> 01:04:28,532
Very dangerous.

629
01:04:33,162 --> 01:04:38,291
You could be killed
for giving a glass of water.

630
01:04:38,418 --> 01:04:41,378
But we gave them water anyway.

631
01:04:45,842 --> 01:04:48,427
(Lanzmann)
Is it very cold here in winter?

632
01:04:48,553 --> 01:04:51,346
(Interpreter ♪ 1 and man
speak Polish)

633
01:04:51,472 --> 01:04:55,434
It depends.

634
01:04:55,560 --> 01:04:58,061
It can get to minus 15, minus 20.

635
01:05:01,315 --> 01:05:04,693
(Lanzmann) Which was harder
on the Jews, summer or winter?

636
01:05:04,819 --> 01:05:10,157
- Waiting here, I mean.
- (Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)

637
01:05:10,825 --> 01:05:12,743
(Man replies)

638
01:05:16,164 --> 01:05:18,373
He thinks winter,
because they were very cold.

639
01:05:18,499 --> 01:05:20,333
(Man continues)

640
01:05:23,755 --> 01:05:28,467
They were so packed in the cars,
maybe they weren't cold.

641
01:05:30,928 --> 01:05:34,181
In summer they stifled,
it was very hot.

642
01:05:35,183 --> 01:05:38,185
The Jews were very thirsty.
They tried to get out.

643
01:05:42,732 --> 01:05:45,609
(Lanzmann) Were there corpses
in the cars on arrival?

644
01:05:45,735 --> 01:05:47,736
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)

645
01:05:52,992 --> 01:05:54,493
Obviously.

646
01:05:55,244 --> 01:05:56,745
Yes.

647
01:06:07,590 --> 01:06:09,633
They were so packed in

648
01:06:09,759 --> 01:06:14,262
that even those still alive
sat on corpses for lack of space.

649
01:06:17,266 --> 01:06:20,435
(Lanzmann) Didn't people here
who went by the trains

650
01:06:20,561 --> 01:06:23,563
look through the cracks in the cars?

651
01:06:23,689 --> 01:06:25,690
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)

652
01:06:32,657 --> 01:06:36,159
Yes, they could look in sometimes
as they went by.

653
01:06:39,956 --> 01:06:43,542
When they were allowed,
they gave them water, too.

654
01:06:43,668 --> 01:06:46,503
(Lanzmann) Yes.
How did the Jews try to get out?

655
01:06:46,629 --> 01:06:49,047
The doors weren't opened.
How'd they get out?

656
01:06:49,173 --> 01:06:51,174
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)

657
01:06:53,386 --> 01:06:55,887
Through the windows.

658
01:06:58,141 --> 01:07:00,809
They removed the barbed wire. Yes.

659
01:07:01,853 --> 01:07:05,272
And came out of the windows.
They jumped, of course.

660
01:07:10,903 --> 01:07:15,615
Sometimes they just deliberately
sat down on the ground,

661
01:07:16,117 --> 01:07:20,745
and the guards came
and shot them in the head.

662
01:07:21,914 --> 01:07:23,623
(Speaking Polish)

663
01:07:31,424 --> 01:07:35,427
They jumped from the cars.
What a sight!

664
01:07:36,470 --> 01:07:38,263
Jumping from the windows.

665
01:07:40,266 --> 01:07:43,185
There was a mother and child.

666
01:07:43,311 --> 01:07:45,478
- (Lanzmann) Jewish?
- Yes.

667
01:07:45,605 --> 01:07:47,355
She tried to run away,

668
01:07:47,815 --> 01:07:51,359
and they shot her in the heart.

669
01:07:54,947 --> 01:07:57,657
- Shot who? The mother?
- Yes, the mother.

670
01:08:00,119 --> 01:08:04,664
This gentleman has lived here
a long time, he can't forget.

671
01:08:15,843 --> 01:08:19,012
He says that now
he can't understand

672
01:08:19,138 --> 01:08:23,683
how a man can do that
to another human being.

673
01:08:24,518 --> 01:08:26,728
It's inconceivable,
beyond understanding.

674
01:08:29,232 --> 01:08:32,567
Once when the Jews asked for water,
a Ukrainian went by

675
01:08:33,569 --> 01:08:35,570
and forbade giving any.

676
01:08:38,491 --> 01:08:41,785
The Jewish woman
that had asked for water

677
01:08:41,911 --> 01:08:46,665
threw her pot at his head.

678
01:08:56,217 --> 01:09:00,345
The Ukrainian moved back,

679
01:09:01,138 --> 01:09:05,725
maybe ten yards,
and opened fire on the car.

680
01:09:06,936 --> 01:09:09,813
Blood and brains
were all over the place.

681
01:09:09,939 --> 01:09:13,108
(Borowi speaks Polish)

682
01:09:13,234 --> 01:09:15,694
(Interpreter ♪ 1)
Lots of people opened the doors...

683
01:09:18,656 --> 01:09:20,865
...or escaped through the windows.

684
01:09:24,120 --> 01:09:29,749
Sometimes the Ukrainians
fired through the car walls.

685
01:09:58,404 --> 01:10:00,905
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)

686
01:10:02,575 --> 01:10:04,034
It happened chiefly at night.

687
01:10:04,160 --> 01:10:08,371
When the Jews talked to each other,
as he showed us,

688
01:10:08,497 --> 01:10:12,792
the Ukrainians wanted things quiet,

689
01:10:12,918 --> 01:10:16,171
and they asked...
yes, asked them to shut up.

690
01:10:16,297 --> 01:10:20,800
So the Jews shut up
and the guard moved off.

691
01:10:20,926 --> 01:10:24,637
Then the Jews started talking again
in their language,

692
01:10:24,764 --> 01:10:26,598
as he says, Ra-Ra-Ra, and so on.

693
01:10:26,724 --> 01:10:30,727
What's he mean, la-la-la?
What's he trying to imitate?

694
01:10:30,853 --> 01:10:33,646
- Their language.
- No, ask him.

695
01:10:37,485 --> 01:10:39,861
Was the Jews' noise
something special?

696
01:10:40,988 --> 01:10:42,906
They spoke Jew.

697
01:10:43,032 --> 01:10:44,282
Yes.

698
01:10:44,408 --> 01:10:47,869
Does Mr. Borowi understand "Jew"?

699
01:10:47,995 --> 01:10:49,496
No.

700
01:10:55,795 --> 01:10:57,629
(Bomba) We were in that wagon.

701
01:10:57,755 --> 01:11:03,468
The wagon was rolling,
rolling in the direction east.

702
01:11:05,471 --> 01:11:08,264
A funny thing happened right there.

703
01:11:08,391 --> 01:11:11,643
Maybe it's not nice to say,
but I will say it.

704
01:11:11,769 --> 01:11:16,314
Most of the people, not only most,
but 99% of the Polish people,

705
01:11:16,440 --> 01:11:18,691
when they saw the train going through...

706
01:11:18,818 --> 01:11:22,362
We looked really like animals
in that wagon,

707
01:11:22,863 --> 01:11:25,532
just our eyes looked outside.

708
01:11:25,658 --> 01:11:29,035
And they were laughing,
and they were all...

709
01:11:29,161 --> 01:11:32,747
They had a joy, because they took
the Jewish people away.

710
01:11:35,501 --> 01:11:38,753
What was going on in the wagon
between the people,

711
01:11:38,879 --> 01:11:41,381
and the pushing and the screaming...

712
01:11:41,507 --> 01:11:44,259
"Where is my child?"
and, "Where is my this?"

713
01:11:44,385 --> 01:11:46,094
and "A little bit of water!"

714
01:11:46,220 --> 01:11:52,016
And people were not only starving,
but they were choking.

715
01:11:52,893 --> 01:11:55,019
It was hot.
It happened... Just it happened...

716
01:11:55,146 --> 01:11:56,646
The Jewish luck...

717
01:11:56,772 --> 01:12:01,067
in September, at that time,
usually when it is rainy, when it is cool,

718
01:12:01,193 --> 01:12:04,446
that it was hot like hell.

719
01:12:04,947 --> 01:12:06,573
We had nothing inside.

720
01:12:06,699 --> 01:12:11,161
For a child, you know, like my own child
about the age of three weeks,

721
01:12:11,287 --> 01:12:13,204
there was not a drop of water.

722
01:12:13,330 --> 01:12:15,039
There wasn't a drop of water
for the mother,

723
01:12:15,166 --> 01:12:18,042
there wasn't a drop of water
for anybody else.

724
01:12:23,632 --> 01:12:25,467
(Whistle blows)

725
01:12:32,516 --> 01:12:36,144
(Lanzmann in French) Did he hear
screams behind his locomotive?

726
01:12:36,270 --> 01:12:38,188
(Whistle blows)

727
01:12:38,314 --> 01:12:41,274
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)

728
01:12:41,400 --> 01:12:43,693
(Man replies)

729
01:12:43,819 --> 01:12:48,364
Obviously, since the locomotive
was next to the camp.

730
01:12:48,491 --> 01:12:51,201
They screamed, asked for water.

731
01:12:58,542 --> 01:13:03,254
The screams from the cars
closest to the locomotive

732
01:13:03,380 --> 01:13:06,007
could be heard very well.

733
01:13:09,595 --> 01:13:11,763
(Lanzmann)
Can one get used to that?

734
01:13:11,889 --> 01:13:15,266
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)

735
01:13:15,392 --> 01:13:18,269
(Man replies)

736
01:13:18,395 --> 01:13:19,729
No.

737
01:13:23,609 --> 01:13:26,402
It was extremely distressing to him.

738
01:13:26,529 --> 01:13:30,990
He knew that the people behind him
were human, like him.

739
01:13:31,116 --> 01:13:32,909
(Whistle blows)

740
01:13:38,374 --> 01:13:45,004
The Germans gave him
and the other workers vodka to drink.

741
01:13:45,130 --> 01:13:47,298
Without drinking,
they couldn't have done it.

742
01:13:47,424 --> 01:13:49,259
(Man continues)

743
01:13:54,473 --> 01:13:56,224
There was a bonus...

744
01:14:00,980 --> 01:14:04,691
...that they were paid
not in money, but in liquor.

745
01:14:04,817 --> 01:14:07,819
(Man continues)

746
01:14:07,945 --> 01:14:11,823
Those who worked on other trains
didn't get this bonus.

747
01:14:11,949 --> 01:14:14,200
(Whistle blows)

748
01:14:15,160 --> 01:14:18,538
HENRIK GAWKOWSKI

749
01:14:25,379 --> 01:14:28,590
(Interpreter)
He drank every drop he got,

750
01:14:28,716 --> 01:14:33,595
because without liquor
he couldn't stand the stench

751
01:14:33,721 --> 01:14:35,638
when he got here.

752
01:14:35,764 --> 01:14:40,268
They even bought more liquor
on their own

753
01:14:40,394 --> 01:14:42,395
to get drunk on.

754
01:14:53,991 --> 01:14:55,867
(Bomba)
We arrived in the morning.

755
01:14:55,993 --> 01:14:59,996
We arrived, I would say,
about 6:00, maybe 6:30.

756
01:15:00,789 --> 01:15:03,791
On the other side of the tracks,

757
01:15:04,293 --> 01:15:08,546
I saw more trains standing there,

758
01:15:10,507 --> 01:15:13,176
and I was watching through...

759
01:15:13,302 --> 01:15:19,974
I saw about 18, 20, maybe more,
wagons going away.

760
01:15:21,477 --> 01:15:24,562
And after about an hour or so,

761
01:15:24,688 --> 01:15:29,442
I saw the wagons coming back,
but without the people.

762
01:15:40,412 --> 01:15:47,043
My train stayed there
until about 12:00.

763
01:15:50,881 --> 01:15:55,468
(Lanzmann) From the station
to the unloading ramp in the camp,

764
01:15:55,594 --> 01:15:57,261
how many miles?

765
01:15:57,388 --> 01:15:59,389
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)

766
01:16:10,484 --> 01:16:11,734
Four.

767
01:16:21,328 --> 01:16:24,330
(Bomba) While we stayed there,
at that station over there,

768
01:16:24,456 --> 01:16:28,459
waiting to go in Treblinka camp,

769
01:16:29,336 --> 01:16:32,797
some of those German SS,
they came around,

770
01:16:32,923 --> 01:16:35,842
and they were asking us
what we have.

771
01:16:36,885 --> 01:16:42,640
So we said, "We got...
Some of the people, they have... gold.

772
01:16:42,766 --> 01:16:44,892
"They have diamonds.

773
01:16:45,018 --> 01:16:47,311
"But we want water."

774
01:16:49,189 --> 01:16:50,690
So they said, "Good.

775
01:16:50,816 --> 01:16:53,359
"Give us the diamonds,
we bring you water."

776
01:16:54,862 --> 01:16:58,448
Yeah, they took them away and
they didn't bring any water at all.

777
01:17:04,496 --> 01:17:06,539
(Lanzmann)
How long did last the trip?

778
01:17:06,665 --> 01:17:12,378
The trip lasted
from Czestochowa to Treblinka

779
01:17:13,088 --> 01:17:15,381
about 24 hours,

780
01:17:15,883 --> 01:17:19,010
with interruption waiting in Warsaw

781
01:17:19,136 --> 01:17:23,097
and also waiting at Treblinka
to go into Treblinka.

782
01:17:23,223 --> 01:17:25,433
ABRAHAM BOMBA

783
01:17:25,559 --> 01:17:28,936
At the last train,
we went in over there.

784
01:17:29,062 --> 01:17:31,147
But, like I mentioned before,

785
01:17:31,273 --> 01:17:33,566
I saw many trains coming back,

786
01:17:33,692 --> 01:17:36,486
but the trains were without the people.

787
01:17:36,612 --> 01:17:39,989
So I said to myself,
"What happened to the people?

788
01:17:40,115 --> 01:17:43,367
We don't see any people,
just trains coming back."

789
01:17:43,494 --> 01:17:45,495
(Train clacking)

790
01:17:49,166 --> 01:17:51,626
(Glazar in German)
We travelled for two days.

791
01:17:53,045 --> 01:17:55,338
On the morning of the second day,

792
01:17:55,464 --> 01:18:00,009
we saw that
we had left Czechoslovakia

793
01:18:00,135 --> 01:18:04,806
and were heading east.

794
01:18:05,390 --> 01:18:07,225
(Train whistle blows)

795
01:18:09,603 --> 01:18:13,523
It wasn't the SS guarding us,

796
01:18:13,649 --> 01:18:17,652
but the Schutzpolizei,

797
01:18:17,778 --> 01:18:20,488
the police, in green uniforms.

798
01:18:23,659 --> 01:18:26,869
We were in ordinary passenger cars.

799
01:18:26,995 --> 01:18:28,996
All the seats were filled.

800
01:18:30,207 --> 01:18:32,500
You couldn't choose.

801
01:18:32,626 --> 01:18:35,378
They were all numbered and assigned.

802
01:18:37,422 --> 01:18:41,717
In my compartment
there was an elderly couple.

803
01:18:41,844 --> 01:18:43,594
I still remember...

804
01:18:43,720 --> 01:18:49,600
The good man was always hungry
and his wife scolded him,

805
01:18:49,726 --> 01:18:56,357
saying they'd have no food left
for the future.

806
01:18:57,568 --> 01:19:00,152
RICHARD GLAZAR

807
01:19:00,279 --> 01:19:02,154
(Whistle blows)

808
01:19:02,990 --> 01:19:06,284
Then, on the second day,

809
01:19:06,410 --> 01:19:09,787
I saw a sign for Malkinia.

810
01:19:09,913 --> 01:19:12,081
We went on a little farther.

811
01:19:12,583 --> 01:19:17,461
Then, very slowly,

812
01:19:17,588 --> 01:19:21,465
the train turned off the main track

813
01:19:21,592 --> 01:19:25,887
and rolled at a walking pace
through a wood.

814
01:19:26,013 --> 01:19:28,890
While he looked out,

815
01:19:29,766 --> 01:19:32,435
we'd been able to open a window.

816
01:19:32,561 --> 01:19:36,522
The old man
in our compartment saw a boy...

817
01:19:36,648 --> 01:19:40,318
Cows were grazing...

818
01:19:40,444 --> 01:19:44,238
And he asked the boy in signs,

819
01:19:44,364 --> 01:19:46,741
"Where are we?"

820
01:19:47,659 --> 01:19:50,661
And the kid made a funny gesture.
This!

821
01:19:51,580 --> 01:19:53,289
Across the throat.

822
01:19:55,876 --> 01:19:58,044
- (Lanzmann) A Pole?
- A Pole.

823
01:19:58,170 --> 01:20:00,463
Where was this? At the station?

824
01:20:00,589 --> 01:20:06,427
It was where the train had stopped.

825
01:20:06,553 --> 01:20:08,387
On one side was the wood,

826
01:20:08,513 --> 01:20:11,515
and on the other were fields.

827
01:20:11,642 --> 01:20:13,893
And there was a farmer in a field?

828
01:20:14,019 --> 01:20:17,063
We saw cows

829
01:20:17,189 --> 01:20:20,900
which were watched over
by a young man,

830
01:20:21,026 --> 01:20:25,029
a farmhand.

831
01:20:26,365 --> 01:20:28,407
And one of you questioned him?

832
01:20:28,533 --> 01:20:35,289
Not in words, but in signs,
we asked, "What's going on here?"

833
01:20:35,415 --> 01:20:38,417
And he made that gesture. Like this.

834
01:20:40,420 --> 01:20:47,176
We didn't really pay
much attention to him.

835
01:20:47,302 --> 01:20:49,804
We couldn't figure out what he meant.

836
01:20:49,930 --> 01:20:51,597
(Dogs barking)

837
01:21:02,109 --> 01:21:04,110
(Man speaks Polish)

838
01:21:08,991 --> 01:21:12,076
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in French)
Once there were foreign Jews...

839
01:21:12,619 --> 01:21:16,372
- They were this fat.
- (Lanzmann) This fat?

840
01:21:16,498 --> 01:21:19,625
Riding in passenger cars.

841
01:21:19,751 --> 01:21:25,131
There was a dining car,
they could drink and walk around too.

842
01:21:25,257 --> 01:21:29,301
They said they were going to a factory.

843
01:21:29,428 --> 01:21:33,931
On arrival, they saw
what kind of a factory it was.

844
01:21:34,474 --> 01:21:36,475
(Men speaking Polish)

845
01:21:38,186 --> 01:21:41,355
(Interpreter) We'd gesture...
(Lanzmann) Gesture how?

846
01:21:43,817 --> 01:21:47,361
(Interpreter) That they'd be killed.
(Lanzmann) They made that sign?

847
01:21:47,487 --> 01:21:49,530
He says the Jews didn't believe it.

848
01:21:49,656 --> 01:21:51,907
(Lanzmann)
But what does that gesture mean?

849
01:21:54,619 --> 01:21:57,038
That death awaited them.

850
01:22:09,259 --> 01:22:12,386
The people who had a chance
to get near the Jews

851
01:22:12,512 --> 01:22:14,764
did that to warn them...

852
01:22:14,890 --> 01:22:17,600
- (Lanzmann) He did it too?
- That they'd be hanged, killed, slain.

853
01:22:17,726 --> 01:22:19,143
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)

854
01:22:19,269 --> 01:22:20,644
Yes.

855
01:22:23,732 --> 01:22:27,693
Even foreign Jews from Belgium,
Czechoslovakia,

856
01:22:27,819 --> 01:22:30,154
from France too, surely.

857
01:22:31,323 --> 01:22:32,990
And from Holland...

858
01:22:35,577 --> 01:22:37,161
These didn't know,

859
01:22:44,753 --> 01:22:48,297
but the Polish Jews knew.

860
01:22:48,423 --> 01:22:54,261
In the small cities in the area,

861
01:22:54,387 --> 01:22:55,554
it was talked about.

862
01:22:55,680 --> 01:22:59,725
So the Polish Jews were forewarned,
but not the others.

863
01:22:59,851 --> 01:23:02,853
Who'd they warn,
Polish Jews or the others?

864
01:23:08,902 --> 01:23:11,695
All the Jews.

865
01:23:35,428 --> 01:23:36,846
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)

866
01:23:36,972 --> 01:23:40,474
He says the foreign Jews
arrived here in passenger cars,

867
01:23:40,600 --> 01:23:43,060
they were well dressed,
in white shirts,

868
01:23:43,186 --> 01:23:47,606
there were flowers in the cars,
and they played cards.

869
01:23:48,191 --> 01:23:52,361
(Lanzmann in French)
From what I know, that was very rare,

870
01:23:52,487 --> 01:23:55,906
Jews shipped in passenger cars.

871
01:23:56,032 --> 01:23:59,785
Most arrived in cattle cars.

872
01:23:59,911 --> 01:24:02,580
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)

873
01:24:15,093 --> 01:24:16,969
It's not true.

874
01:24:17,095 --> 01:24:18,846
(Lanzmann) It's not true?

875
01:24:18,972 --> 01:24:21,015
(Woman speaks Polish)

876
01:24:22,392 --> 01:24:24,143
(Lanzmann)
What did Mrs. Gawkowska say?

877
01:24:24,269 --> 01:24:28,647
(Interpreter ♪ 1) She said
he may not have seen everything.

878
01:24:28,773 --> 01:24:32,109
(Interpreter ♪ 1) He says he did.

879
01:24:59,304 --> 01:25:02,389
Once, at the Malkinia station,
for example,

880
01:25:02,515 --> 01:25:05,809
a foreign Jew left the train

881
01:25:05,936 --> 01:25:08,312
to buy something at the bar.

882
01:25:08,813 --> 01:25:13,984
The train pulled out
and he ran after it.

883
01:25:14,110 --> 01:25:17,112
(Lanzmann) To catch up to it?
(Interpreter ♪ 1) Yes.

884
01:25:17,239 --> 01:25:22,409
So he went past these "Pullmans,"
as he calls them,

885
01:25:22,535 --> 01:25:27,623
those Jews who were calm,
unsuspecting,

886
01:25:27,749 --> 01:25:30,209
and he made that gesture to them.

887
01:25:30,335 --> 01:25:32,169
(Speaks Polish)

888
01:25:39,761 --> 01:25:40,928
Yes.

889
01:25:41,638 --> 01:25:43,806
To all the Jews, in principle.

890
01:25:43,932 --> 01:25:46,684
He just went along the platform?
Ask him.

891
01:25:53,858 --> 01:25:58,153
Yes. The road was as it is now.

892
01:26:00,365 --> 01:26:04,868
When the guard wasn't looking,

893
01:26:04,995 --> 01:26:07,454
he made that gesture.

894
01:26:12,460 --> 01:26:16,130
(Lanzmann) Ask Mr. Gawkowski
why he looks so sad.

895
01:26:16,256 --> 01:26:19,258
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)

896
01:26:25,015 --> 01:26:27,850
Because I saw men
marching to their death.

897
01:26:30,687 --> 01:26:33,022
(Lanzmann)
Precisely where are we now?

898
01:26:33,148 --> 01:26:35,858
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)

899
01:26:42,741 --> 01:26:47,578
It's not far,
a mile and a halffrom here.

900
01:26:47,704 --> 01:26:49,621
- (Lanzmann) What, the camp?
- Yes.

901
01:26:51,833 --> 01:26:53,334
Yes.

902
01:26:55,420 --> 01:26:59,089
(Lanzmann)
What's that dirt road he's indicating?

903
01:27:02,302 --> 01:27:05,846
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)

904
01:27:08,099 --> 01:27:11,268
That's where the rail line
into the camp was.

905
01:27:29,496 --> 01:27:33,290
(Lanzmann) Did Mr. Gawkowski,
aside from the trains of deportees

906
01:27:33,416 --> 01:27:39,004
that he drove from Warsaw or
Bialystok to Treblinka station,

907
01:27:39,130 --> 01:27:43,634
did he ever drive the deportee cars

908
01:27:43,760 --> 01:27:46,678
into the camp
from Treblinka station?

909
01:27:47,639 --> 01:27:50,224
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)

910
01:28:00,235 --> 01:28:01,443
Yes.

911
01:28:03,530 --> 01:28:07,199
- (Lanzmann) Did he do it often?
- (Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)

912
01:28:09,244 --> 01:28:11,912
Two or three times a week.

913
01:28:12,664 --> 01:28:15,416
(Lanzmann) Over how long a period?

914
01:28:18,920 --> 01:28:21,296
Around a year and a half.

915
01:28:21,423 --> 01:28:24,508
(Lanzmann) That is,
throughout the camp's existence?

916
01:28:24,634 --> 01:28:26,969
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)

917
01:28:27,095 --> 01:28:28,470
Yes.

918
01:29:04,924 --> 01:29:07,885
- (Lanzmann) This is the ramp.
- (Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)

919
01:29:08,011 --> 01:29:10,929
Here he is, he goes
to the end with his locomotive,

920
01:29:11,055 --> 01:29:14,308
and he has the 20 cars behind him.

921
01:29:15,018 --> 01:29:20,481
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)

922
01:29:20,607 --> 01:29:23,442
No, they're in front of him.

923
01:29:23,568 --> 01:29:26,153
He pushed them?

924
01:29:26,279 --> 01:29:29,072
That's right, he pushed them.

925
01:29:29,199 --> 01:29:31,033
(Interpreter ♪ 1) Yes.

926
01:30:12,992 --> 01:30:14,993
(Piwonski speaks Polish)

927
01:30:26,172 --> 01:30:28,215
(Interpreter ♪ 1)
In February 1942,

928
01:30:28,341 --> 01:30:31,468
I began working here
as an assistant switchman.

929
01:30:33,054 --> 01:30:36,348
(Lanzmann) The station building,
the rails, the platforms

930
01:30:36,474 --> 01:30:39,476
are just as they were in 1942?

931
01:30:39,602 --> 01:30:44,731
- Nothing's changed?
- (Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)

932
01:30:44,857 --> 01:30:46,441
Nothing.

933
01:30:46,568 --> 01:30:49,444
Exactly where did the camp begin?

934
01:30:52,532 --> 01:30:54,658
JAN PIWONSKI

935
01:30:55,243 --> 01:30:57,911
I'll show you exactly.

936
01:31:17,348 --> 01:31:18,765
Here,

937
01:31:25,231 --> 01:31:29,026
there was a fence that ran
to those trees you see there.

938
01:31:29,152 --> 01:31:30,485
(Lanzmann) Yes.

939
01:31:36,326 --> 01:31:39,578
And another fence that ran
to those trees over there.

940
01:31:40,496 --> 01:31:45,000
So I'm standing
inside the camp perimeter, right?

941
01:31:48,838 --> 01:31:49,880
That's right.

942
01:31:50,006 --> 01:31:53,717
Where I am now
is 50 feet from the station,

943
01:31:53,843 --> 01:31:55,552
and I'm already outside the camp.

944
01:31:55,678 --> 01:32:00,223
(Interpreter ♪ 1 and Piwonski
speak Polish)

945
01:32:00,350 --> 01:32:01,516
Yes.

946
01:32:05,021 --> 01:32:08,023
So this is the Polish part,
and over there was death?

947
01:32:08,149 --> 01:32:11,234
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)

948
01:32:11,361 --> 01:32:12,361
Yes.

949
01:32:14,489 --> 01:32:16,490
(Piwonski continues)

950
01:32:23,164 --> 01:32:27,292
On German orders,
Polish railmen split up the trains.

951
01:32:35,051 --> 01:32:36,968
So the locomotive took 20 cars

952
01:32:37,095 --> 01:32:39,638
and headed toward Chelm.

953
01:32:42,975 --> 01:32:44,643
When it reached a switch...

954
01:32:47,397 --> 01:32:53,860
...it pushed the cars into the camp
on the other track we can see.

955
01:32:54,696 --> 01:32:55,904
The ramp began there.

956
01:32:56,030 --> 01:32:59,366
So here we're outside the camp,

957
01:32:59,492 --> 01:33:03,870
and back here we enter it.

958
01:33:03,996 --> 01:33:08,667
Unlike Treblinka,
the station here is part of the camp.

959
01:33:11,879 --> 01:33:13,338
Yes...

960
01:33:14,132 --> 01:33:18,593
And at this point,
we are inside the camp.

961
01:33:21,514 --> 01:33:24,349
(Interpreter ♪ 1)
This track was inside the camp.

962
01:33:25,184 --> 01:33:29,020
And it's exactly as it was? Hmm?

963
01:33:32,608 --> 01:33:34,401
Yes, the same track.

964
01:33:34,861 --> 01:33:37,028
It hasn't changed since then.

965
01:33:37,155 --> 01:33:41,241
Where we are now is
what was called the ramp, right?

966
01:33:50,042 --> 01:33:54,796
Yes, those to be exterminated
were unloaded here.

967
01:33:54,922 --> 01:33:56,339
So where we're standing

968
01:33:56,466 --> 01:34:01,344
is where 250,000 Jews were
unloaded before being gassed?

969
01:34:05,850 --> 01:34:06,850
Yes.

970
01:34:12,482 --> 01:34:17,444
(Lanzmann) Did foreign Jews
arrive here in passenger cars, too?

971
01:34:17,570 --> 01:34:19,571
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)

972
01:34:25,036 --> 01:34:28,079
Not always.

973
01:34:28,206 --> 01:34:32,542
(Piwonski continues)

974
01:34:32,668 --> 01:34:34,628
Often the richest Jews...

975
01:34:36,339 --> 01:34:38,089
...from Belgium, Holland, France...

976
01:34:40,301 --> 01:34:41,802
...arrived in passenger cars...

977
01:34:43,054 --> 01:34:45,722
...sometimes even in 1st class.

978
01:34:49,644 --> 01:34:52,729
They were usually better treated
by the guards.

979
01:35:15,127 --> 01:35:18,588
Especially the convoys
of Western European Jews

980
01:35:18,714 --> 01:35:21,258
waiting their turn here,

981
01:35:24,095 --> 01:35:28,265
Polish railmen saw the women
putting on make-up, combing their hair,

982
01:35:28,391 --> 01:35:31,393
wholly unaware of what
awaited them minutes later.

983
01:35:31,519 --> 01:35:32,644
Yes.

984
01:35:32,770 --> 01:35:34,646
They dolled up.

985
01:35:45,658 --> 01:35:47,951
And the Poles couldn't
tell them anything,

986
01:35:48,077 --> 01:35:53,373
the guards forbade contact
with the future victims.

987
01:36:01,299 --> 01:36:03,842
(Lanzmann) I suppose
there were fine days like today.

988
01:36:05,094 --> 01:36:07,095
(Interpreter ♪ 1 and Piwonski in Polish)

989
01:36:11,142 --> 01:36:14,185
Unfortunately, some were even finer.

990
01:36:21,402 --> 01:36:24,404
RUDOLF VRBA - NEW YORK, USA
SURVIVOR OF AUSCHWITZ

991
01:36:24,530 --> 01:36:27,032
(Vrba) There was a place
called the ramp,

992
01:36:27,158 --> 01:36:31,202
where the trains with the Jews
were coming in, in Auschwitz.

993
01:36:32,914 --> 01:36:35,373
They were coming in day or night,

994
01:36:35,499 --> 01:36:39,252
and sometimes one per day,
and sometimes five per day,

995
01:36:39,378 --> 01:36:41,838
from all sorts of places in the world.

996
01:36:43,132 --> 01:36:46,718
I worked there from August 18, 1942

997
01:36:46,844 --> 01:36:50,221
until June 7, 1943.

998
01:36:52,683 --> 01:36:55,518
I saw those transports rolling
one after the other,

999
01:36:55,645 --> 01:36:59,773
and I am sure that I have seen at least
two hundred of them, in this position.

1000
01:37:01,192 --> 01:37:04,736
I have seen it so many times
that it became a routine.

1001
01:37:07,239 --> 01:37:10,158
Constantly, people from the heart
of Europe were disappearing,

1002
01:37:10,284 --> 01:37:12,577
and they were arriving
to the same place

1003
01:37:12,703 --> 01:37:16,456
with the same ignorance of the fate
of the previous transports.

1004
01:37:17,458 --> 01:37:20,126
And that people in this mass...

1005
01:37:20,252 --> 01:37:23,755
And I knew, of course, that within
a couple of hours after they arrived there,

1006
01:37:23,881 --> 01:37:27,550
90% of them will be gassed,
or something like that. I knew that.

1007
01:37:27,677 --> 01:37:31,680
And somehow, in my thinking,
it... I could...

1008
01:37:31,806 --> 01:37:36,267
it was difficult for me to comprehend
that people can disappear in this way,

1009
01:37:36,936 --> 01:37:38,353
and nothing is going to happen,

1010
01:37:38,479 --> 01:37:41,106
and then there comes the next transport,

1011
01:37:41,232 --> 01:37:45,026
and they don't know anything about
what happened to the previous transport,

1012
01:37:45,152 --> 01:37:48,989
and this is going on
for months and months, on and on.

1013
01:37:51,033 --> 01:37:54,119
AUSCHWITZ - BIRKENAU

1014
01:37:55,538 --> 01:37:57,539
So what happened was the following:

1015
01:37:58,040 --> 01:38:02,210
say, a transport of Jews
was announced to come at 2:00.

1016
01:38:02,753 --> 01:38:06,381
So when the transport arrived
to close stations from Auschwitz,

1017
01:38:06,507 --> 01:38:09,217
the announcement came to the SS.

1018
01:38:10,052 --> 01:38:12,554
Now, one SS man came
and woke us up.

1019
01:38:12,680 --> 01:38:16,474
We had to get up
and move to the ramp.

1020
01:38:16,600 --> 01:38:19,519
We immediately got an escort
in the night,

1021
01:38:19,645 --> 01:38:21,730
and we were escorted to the ramp.

1022
01:38:21,856 --> 01:38:24,274
Say, we were about 200 men.

1023
01:38:25,192 --> 01:38:27,569
And lights went on.

1024
01:38:29,530 --> 01:38:31,197
There was a ramp.

1025
01:38:31,323 --> 01:38:34,117
Around the ramp were lights,

1026
01:38:34,243 --> 01:38:38,705
and under those lights
were the cordon of the SS.

1027
01:38:38,831 --> 01:38:43,001
There was one every 10 yards,
with a gun in the hand.

1028
01:38:44,295 --> 01:38:47,380
So, we were in the middle,
the prisoners,

1029
01:38:47,923 --> 01:38:49,549
and we were waiting,

1030
01:38:49,675 --> 01:38:52,677
waiting for the train,
waiting for the next order.

1031
01:38:54,221 --> 01:38:57,390
Now, when all this was done,
everybody was there,

1032
01:38:57,933 --> 01:39:00,060
the transport was rolled in.

1033
01:39:01,312 --> 01:39:04,064
This means in a very slow fashion.

1034
01:39:04,690 --> 01:39:07,734
The locomotive,
which was always at the front,

1035
01:39:08,277 --> 01:39:10,153
was coming to the ramp,

1036
01:39:10,279 --> 01:39:12,572
and that was the end of the railway line.

1037
01:39:12,698 --> 01:39:16,618
That was the end of the line
for everybody who was on the train.

1038
01:39:21,499 --> 01:39:24,501
And, now, the train stopped,
and...

1039
01:39:25,795 --> 01:39:28,838
the gangster elite
marched on the ramp.

1040
01:39:29,924 --> 01:39:33,093
And in front of every second
or every third wagon,

1041
01:39:33,219 --> 01:39:35,678
and sometimes in front of every wagon,

1042
01:39:35,805 --> 01:39:38,223
one of those Unterscharführers...

1043
01:39:41,060 --> 01:39:43,061
...was standing with a key

1044
01:39:43,521 --> 01:39:45,772
and opened the locks,

1045
01:39:45,898 --> 01:39:49,275
because the wagons were locked.

1046
01:39:51,195 --> 01:39:54,405
Now, inside,
there were people, of course,

1047
01:39:54,532 --> 01:39:56,866
and you could see the people
looking through the windows,

1048
01:39:56,992 --> 01:39:58,451
because they didn't know what's
happening.

1049
01:39:58,577 --> 01:40:00,120
They had many stops on their journey.

1050
01:40:00,246 --> 01:40:01,846
Some of them were 10 days
on the journey.

1051
01:40:01,914 --> 01:40:04,207
Some were two days on the journey.

1052
01:40:05,417 --> 01:40:07,961
And they didn't know
what this particular stop means.

1053
01:40:08,087 --> 01:40:10,130
Now, the door was opened.

1054
01:40:11,006 --> 01:40:13,967
And the first order they were given was,

1055
01:40:14,093 --> 01:40:17,595
"Alle heraus!"
"Everybody out!"

1056
01:40:18,764 --> 01:40:20,348
In order to make it quite clear,

1057
01:40:20,474 --> 01:40:24,519
they usually started
with those walking sticks

1058
01:40:24,645 --> 01:40:28,022
to hit the first, the second,
the third, who were...

1059
01:40:28,149 --> 01:40:30,108
They were... They were...

1060
01:40:30,234 --> 01:40:32,318
They were like sardines in those cars.

1061
01:40:35,072 --> 01:40:38,408
If they expected on that day
four, five, six transports,

1062
01:40:38,534 --> 01:40:42,996
the pressure of getting out
from the wagons was high.

1063
01:40:50,045 --> 01:40:54,090
Then they used sticks, clubs,
cursing, et cetera, et cetera.

1064
01:40:57,219 --> 01:40:59,387
Sometimes, the SS,
if it was good weather,

1065
01:40:59,513 --> 01:41:01,055
they used to deal with it differently.

1066
01:41:01,182 --> 01:41:05,518
I mean, I was not surprised
if they were in a different mood and...

1067
01:41:05,644 --> 01:41:08,521
and exhibited a lot of humour,

1068
01:41:08,647 --> 01:41:10,523
like saying, "Good morning, Madam,"

1069
01:41:10,649 --> 01:41:12,859
and, "Will you please walk out?"

1070
01:41:12,985 --> 01:41:15,945
- (Lanzmann) It happened?
- Oh, yes. Oh, yes.

1071
01:41:16,071 --> 01:41:18,656
And, "How nice that you arrived.

1072
01:41:18,782 --> 01:41:21,034
"We are so sorry that
it wasn't too convenient,

1073
01:41:21,160 --> 01:41:23,828
"but now things will become different."

1074
01:41:27,791 --> 01:41:30,627
(Bomba)
When we came into Treblinka,

1075
01:41:30,753 --> 01:41:33,129
we didn't know who the people were.

1076
01:41:33,589 --> 01:41:37,091
Some of them, they had armbands,
some of them red.

1077
01:41:37,218 --> 01:41:40,929
Some of them, they had blue,
Jewish kommando.

1078
01:41:42,598 --> 01:41:45,016
Falling out from the train

1079
01:41:45,559 --> 01:41:48,311
and pushing out each other

1080
01:41:48,437 --> 01:41:51,481
and, over there, losing each other,

1081
01:41:51,607 --> 01:41:55,526
and the... and the...
and the crying and the hollering.

1082
01:41:55,653 --> 01:41:58,321
And, coming out,

1083
01:41:59,990 --> 01:42:03,785
we started on one way
to the right, one to the left,

1084
01:42:03,911 --> 01:42:06,829
the women to the left
and the men on the right.

1085
01:42:08,123 --> 01:42:09,874
And...

1086
01:42:10,834 --> 01:42:14,754
we had no time
to even look at each other,

1087
01:42:15,339 --> 01:42:18,925
because they start hitting over the head

1088
01:42:19,510 --> 01:42:21,928
with all kinds of things.

1089
01:42:23,389 --> 01:42:24,806
And...

1090
01:42:26,350 --> 01:42:28,351
it is very, very...

1091
01:42:28,477 --> 01:42:30,353
Painful, it was.

1092
01:42:32,398 --> 01:42:35,984
You didn't know what had happened.

1093
01:42:36,110 --> 01:42:38,611
You had no time to think.

1094
01:42:38,737 --> 01:42:41,572
All you heard is crying.

1095
01:42:42,032 --> 01:42:46,744
And all you heard, all the time,
was the hollering of the people.

1096
01:42:47,746 --> 01:42:49,914
(In German)
And suddenly it started,

1097
01:42:50,040 --> 01:42:52,709
the yelling and screaming.

1098
01:42:52,835 --> 01:42:54,794
"All out, everybody out!"

1099
01:42:55,254 --> 01:42:59,382
All those shouts,
the uproar, the tumult!

1100
01:42:59,925 --> 01:43:02,218
"Out! Get out!

1101
01:43:04,930 --> 01:43:07,140
"Leave the baggage!"

1102
01:43:07,683 --> 01:43:11,436
We got out, stepping on each other.

1103
01:43:16,233 --> 01:43:22,113
We saw men wearing blue armbands.

1104
01:43:22,239 --> 01:43:26,868
Some carried whips.

1105
01:43:29,038 --> 01:43:31,706
We saw some SS men.

1106
01:43:31,832 --> 01:43:34,917
Green uniforms,

1107
01:43:35,044 --> 01:43:40,131
black uniforms...

1108
01:43:42,843 --> 01:43:44,844
We were a mass...

1109
01:43:47,097 --> 01:43:50,558
And the mass swept us along.

1110
01:43:50,684 --> 01:43:55,938
It was irresistible.
It had to move to another place.

1111
01:44:08,243 --> 01:44:10,745
I saw the others undressing.

1112
01:44:12,247 --> 01:44:16,793
And I heard, "Get undressed!
You're to be disinfected!"

1113
01:44:19,338 --> 01:44:22,882
As I waited, already naked,

1114
01:44:23,008 --> 01:44:29,931
I noticed the SS men
separating out some people.

1115
01:44:30,057 --> 01:44:32,392
These were told to get dressed.

1116
01:44:34,311 --> 01:44:40,441
A passing SS man suddenly
stopped in front of me,

1117
01:44:41,819 --> 01:44:45,113
looked me over, and said,

1118
01:44:45,239 --> 01:44:50,368
"Yes, you too, quick,
join the others, get dressed.

1119
01:44:50,494 --> 01:44:55,039
"You're going to work here,
and if you're good,

1120
01:44:55,165 --> 01:44:57,959
"you can be a kapo, a squad leader."

1121
01:45:03,507 --> 01:45:08,678
(Bomba) At my transport,
I was waiting, already naked.

1122
01:45:10,472 --> 01:45:14,809
A man came over and asked,
"You, you, you, step out."

1123
01:45:14,935 --> 01:45:17,145
We stepped out,

1124
01:45:17,271 --> 01:45:21,107
and they took us
a little bit to the side.

1125
01:45:23,235 --> 01:45:26,612
Some of the people from the transport,

1126
01:45:26,738 --> 01:45:28,948
they had an idea what is going on,

1127
01:45:29,074 --> 01:45:34,078
and they know already
that they will not stay alive.

1128
01:45:35,080 --> 01:45:38,541
Pushing the people,
they didn't want to go,

1129
01:45:38,667 --> 01:45:41,419
or they knew already where they go,

1130
01:45:41,545 --> 01:45:45,631
to that big door.

1131
01:45:47,926 --> 01:45:51,137
The hollering and the crying
and the shouting

1132
01:45:51,263 --> 01:45:53,931
what was going over there on,

1133
01:45:55,184 --> 01:45:57,602
it was impossible.

1134
01:45:58,270 --> 01:46:03,941
The cries and the hollers was
in your ears and in your mind

1135
01:46:04,067 --> 01:46:06,235
for days and days,

1136
01:46:06,695 --> 01:46:08,821
and, at night, the same thing.

1137
01:46:08,947 --> 01:46:13,451
From that hollering, you could not
even sleep a couple nights of that.

1138
01:46:16,330 --> 01:46:20,166
All of a sudden,
at one time, everything stopped,

1139
01:46:20,292 --> 01:46:23,211
like by a command.

1140
01:46:35,933 --> 01:46:38,476
It was all quiet,

1141
01:46:38,602 --> 01:46:42,188
the place where the people went in.

1142
01:46:43,065 --> 01:46:45,900
Just like on a command.

1143
01:46:46,860 --> 01:46:48,861
Like everything was dead.

1144
01:47:00,499 --> 01:47:06,837
Then, they told us
to make clean the whole place.

1145
01:47:06,964 --> 01:47:11,592
It was about 2,000 people

1146
01:47:11,718 --> 01:47:14,637
which they undressed on the outside.

1147
01:47:16,098 --> 01:47:20,851
To take the whole thing away
and to clear up the place,

1148
01:47:20,978 --> 01:47:25,189
and that has to be done in minutes.

1149
01:47:27,609 --> 01:47:31,279
Some of the Germans,
some of the other people that were there,

1150
01:47:31,405 --> 01:47:33,531
the Ukrainians or the other ones,

1151
01:47:33,657 --> 01:47:40,037
they start shouting and hitting us
that we should do it faster,

1152
01:47:40,163 --> 01:47:46,210
to carry the bundles on our backs
faster to the main place,

1153
01:47:47,212 --> 01:47:53,676
where it was big places of clothes,

1154
01:47:53,802 --> 01:47:56,971
of shoes, of other things.

1155
01:47:57,598 --> 01:48:00,308
In no time, this was clean,

1156
01:48:00,434 --> 01:48:02,435
just like it never happened,

1157
01:48:02,561 --> 01:48:05,813
that never was people
on that place again.

1158
01:48:06,565 --> 01:48:11,360
There was no trace, not at all.

1159
01:48:12,154 --> 01:48:16,365
Like a magic thing,
everything disappeared.

1160
01:48:18,118 --> 01:48:21,037
BIRKENAU: THE RAMP

1161
01:48:25,667 --> 01:48:27,918
(Vrba)
Whenever a new transport came,

1162
01:48:28,045 --> 01:48:32,173
the ramp was cleaned
absolutely to zero point.

1163
01:48:35,761 --> 01:48:40,139
No trace from the previous transport
was allowed to remain.

1164
01:48:41,475 --> 01:48:43,517
Not one trace.

1165
01:48:54,404 --> 01:48:58,366
(Glazar in German)
We were taken to the barracks.

1166
01:48:59,785 --> 01:49:03,287
The whole place stank.

1167
01:49:05,540 --> 01:49:09,460
Piled about five feet high

1168
01:49:09,586 --> 01:49:14,507
in a jumbled mass,

1169
01:49:14,633 --> 01:49:19,553
were all the things people
could conceivably have brought.

1170
01:49:20,972 --> 01:49:24,517
Clothes, suitcases,

1171
01:49:24,643 --> 01:49:29,855
everything stacked in a solid mass.

1172
01:49:30,941 --> 01:49:34,819
On top of it,
jumping around like demons,

1173
01:49:34,945 --> 01:49:40,866
people were making bundles

1174
01:49:40,992 --> 01:49:44,286
and carrying them outside.

1175
01:49:45,205 --> 01:49:49,333
I was turned over to one of these men.

1176
01:49:49,459 --> 01:49:54,171
His armband said, "Squad Leader."

1177
01:49:54,840 --> 01:49:56,382
He shouted,

1178
01:49:56,508 --> 01:50:02,596
and I understood that I was also
to pick up clothing, bundle it,

1179
01:50:04,266 --> 01:50:09,979
and take it somewhere.

1180
01:50:12,399 --> 01:50:15,901
As I worked, I asked him,

1181
01:50:16,027 --> 01:50:20,614
"What's going on?
The undressed ones, where are they?"

1182
01:50:21,700 --> 01:50:26,746
And he replied, "Dead! All dead!"

1183
01:50:29,124 --> 01:50:33,753
But it still hadn't sunk in,
I didn't believe it.

1184
01:50:34,421 --> 01:50:36,213
He'd used the Yiddish word.

1185
01:50:36,339 --> 01:50:41,969
It was the first time
I'd heard Yiddish spoken.

1186
01:50:44,723 --> 01:50:48,976
He didn't say it very loud,

1187
01:50:50,061 --> 01:50:54,982
and I saw he had tears in his eyes.

1188
01:50:56,026 --> 01:50:59,820
Suddenly he started shouting

1189
01:50:59,946 --> 01:51:02,072
and raised his whip.

1190
01:51:02,199 --> 01:51:07,203
Out of the corner of my eyes,
I saw an SS man coming.

1191
01:51:07,329 --> 01:51:11,582
And I understood that
I was to ask no more questions,

1192
01:51:11,708 --> 01:51:18,047
but just to rush outside
with the package.

1193
01:51:22,052 --> 01:51:25,596
(Bomba)
At that time, we start working

1194
01:51:25,722 --> 01:51:29,600
in that place which they call Treblinka.

1195
01:51:31,478 --> 01:51:34,438
And still, I couldn't believe
what had happened

1196
01:51:34,564 --> 01:51:38,442
over there on the other side
of the gate,

1197
01:51:39,110 --> 01:51:42,613
where the people went in, disappeared,

1198
01:51:42,739 --> 01:51:45,366
or everything got quiet.

1199
01:51:48,787 --> 01:51:50,913
But in a minute, we find out,

1200
01:51:51,039 --> 01:51:54,875
when we start to ask the people
which they worked before us

1201
01:51:55,001 --> 01:51:56,752
what had happened with them.

1202
01:51:56,878 --> 01:52:00,381
They said, "What do you mean,
what happened? Don't you know that?

1203
01:52:01,216 --> 01:52:04,176
"They're all gassed. They're all killed."

1204
01:52:04,928 --> 01:52:09,431
It was impossible to say something

1205
01:52:09,975 --> 01:52:12,434
because we were just like stones.

1206
01:52:12,561 --> 01:52:15,396
We couldn't mention
what had happened to the wife,

1207
01:52:15,522 --> 01:52:16,981
what had happened to the kid.

1208
01:52:17,107 --> 01:52:19,149
"What do you mean, wife?
What do you mean, kid?

1209
01:52:19,276 --> 01:52:21,443
"Nobody is anymore alive!"

1210
01:52:21,570 --> 01:52:23,988
"What do you mean, they're not alive?
How could they...?

1211
01:52:24,114 --> 01:52:28,701
"How could they kill, how could
they gas so many people at once?"

1212
01:52:28,827 --> 01:52:32,121
But they had their way how to do it.

1213
01:52:41,131 --> 01:52:45,759
(Glazar) All I could think of
then was my friend Carel Unger.

1214
01:52:47,470 --> 01:52:51,056
He'd been at the rear of the train,

1215
01:52:51,182 --> 01:52:55,978
in a section that had been
uncoupled and left outside.

1216
01:52:57,814 --> 01:53:02,735
I needed someone.
Near me. With me.

1217
01:53:06,197 --> 01:53:10,200
Then I saw him.
He was in the 2nd group.

1218
01:53:10,327 --> 01:53:12,995
He'd been spared too.

1219
01:53:15,707 --> 01:53:20,920
On the way, somehow,
he had learned, he already knew.

1220
01:53:21,046 --> 01:53:23,672
He looked at me,

1221
01:53:25,091 --> 01:53:30,971
all he said was,
"Richard, my father, mother, brother..."

1222
01:53:32,933 --> 01:53:36,143
He had learned on the way there.

1223
01:53:38,897 --> 01:53:42,608
(Lanzmann) Your meeting with Carel,

1224
01:53:42,734 --> 01:53:46,403
how long after your arrival
did it happen?

1225
01:53:47,948 --> 01:53:54,662
It was... around 20 minutes
after we reached Treblinka.

1226
01:54:01,711 --> 01:54:04,797
Then I left the barracks

1227
01:54:04,923 --> 01:54:09,843
and had my first look
at the vast space

1228
01:54:10,595 --> 01:54:17,768
that I soon learned was called
"the sorting place."

1229
01:54:18,937 --> 01:54:24,316
It was buried under mountains
of objects of all kinds.

1230
01:54:25,068 --> 01:54:29,697
Mountains of shoes,
of clothes, 30 feet high.

1231
01:54:32,492 --> 01:54:36,412
I thought about it and said to Carel,

1232
01:54:36,538 --> 01:54:39,707
"It's a hurricane, a raging sea.

1233
01:54:39,833 --> 01:54:43,877
"We're shipwrecked.
And we're still alive.

1234
01:54:44,004 --> 01:54:46,422
"We must do nothing

1235
01:54:46,548 --> 01:54:49,717
"but watch for every new wave,

1236
01:54:49,843 --> 01:54:52,886
"float on it,

1237
01:54:53,013 --> 01:54:58,892
"get ready for the next wave,

1238
01:54:59,019 --> 01:55:01,061
"and ride the wave at all costs.

1239
01:55:01,187 --> 01:55:03,647
"And nothing else."

1240
01:55:06,443 --> 01:55:09,486
That's how the day went through,

1241
01:55:10,405 --> 01:55:12,531
without anything.

1242
01:55:12,657 --> 01:55:14,450
No drinking.

1243
01:55:14,576 --> 01:55:18,328
We were 24 hours without water,
without anything.

1244
01:55:18,455 --> 01:55:19,955
We couldn't drink.

1245
01:55:20,081 --> 01:55:23,459
We couldn't have anything
taken into our mouths,

1246
01:55:23,585 --> 01:55:25,961
because it was impossible.

1247
01:55:26,087 --> 01:55:28,756
Just the meaning that before...

1248
01:55:28,882 --> 01:55:30,883
a minute, an hour before,

1249
01:55:31,009 --> 01:55:32,926
you were part of a family,

1250
01:55:33,053 --> 01:55:36,138
you were part of a wife or a husband,

1251
01:55:36,264 --> 01:55:41,101
and now, all of a sudden,
everything is dead.

1252
01:55:42,395 --> 01:55:44,980
We went into a special barrack,

1253
01:55:45,815 --> 01:55:49,651
where I was sleeping
right next to the wall.

1254
01:55:50,820 --> 01:55:54,573
And over there, that night,

1255
01:55:54,699 --> 01:55:57,910
it was the most horrible night
for all the people,

1256
01:55:58,912 --> 01:56:01,371
because the memory
of all those things,

1257
01:56:01,498 --> 01:56:04,374
what people went through
with each other,

1258
01:56:04,501 --> 01:56:06,085
all the joys and the happiness,

1259
01:56:06,211 --> 01:56:09,671
and the births and the weddings
and other things,

1260
01:56:09,798 --> 01:56:12,216
and all of a sudden, in one second,

1261
01:56:12,342 --> 01:56:15,219
to cut that through without anything,

1262
01:56:15,345 --> 01:56:17,596
and without any guilt of the people,

1263
01:56:17,722 --> 01:56:19,723
because the people
were not guilty at all.

1264
01:56:19,849 --> 01:56:23,852
The only guilt from them was
because they were Jewish people.

1265
01:56:26,481 --> 01:56:30,234
Most of us, we were all up at night,

1266
01:56:30,360 --> 01:56:34,279
trying to talk to each other,
which was not allowed.

1267
01:56:34,405 --> 01:56:37,616
The commandant was sleeping
in the same barrack.

1268
01:56:37,742 --> 01:56:40,285
We were not allowed
to talk to each other

1269
01:56:40,411 --> 01:56:46,083
or to express our view
or our minds to each other

1270
01:56:46,918 --> 01:56:51,171
until the morning, at 5:00,

1271
01:56:52,257 --> 01:56:56,760
we start going out from the barracks.

1272
01:56:58,429 --> 01:57:00,097
In the morning,

1273
01:57:01,141 --> 01:57:05,936
when they had an Appelle
to go out from the barracks,

1274
01:57:06,062 --> 01:57:07,855
from our group,

1275
01:57:07,981 --> 01:57:12,901
I would say at least
four or five were dead.

1276
01:57:13,736 --> 01:57:17,030
I don't know how
the thing happened that, what?

1277
01:57:17,157 --> 01:57:23,829
They must have with them
some kind of... some kind of poison

1278
01:57:23,955 --> 01:57:26,039
in which they poisoned themselves.

1279
01:57:26,166 --> 01:57:28,250
Some of them there,

1280
01:57:28,376 --> 01:57:31,461
I would say at least of them
were my friends,

1281
01:57:31,588 --> 01:57:33,839
two of my close friends.

1282
01:57:33,965 --> 01:57:35,966
They didn't say anything.

1283
01:57:36,092 --> 01:57:39,303
We didn't even know that
they have with them poison.

1284
01:57:44,267 --> 01:57:47,561
(Glazar in German)
Greenery, sand everywhere else.

1285
01:57:47,687 --> 01:57:50,814
At night, we were put into barracks.

1286
01:57:50,940 --> 01:57:52,858
It just had a sand floor.

1287
01:57:52,984 --> 01:57:55,444
Nothing else.

1288
01:57:55,904 --> 01:58:01,325
Each of us simply dropped
where he stood.

1289
01:58:02,076 --> 01:58:08,332
Half asleep,
I heard some men hang themselves.

1290
01:58:08,458 --> 01:58:12,669
We didn't react then.
It was almost normal.

1291
01:58:14,088 --> 01:58:16,131
Just as it was normal

1292
01:58:16,257 --> 01:58:23,805
that for everyone behind whom
the gate of Treblinka closed,

1293
01:58:24,265 --> 01:58:28,227
there was death, had to be death,

1294
01:58:28,353 --> 01:58:35,192
for no one was supposed
to be left to bear witness.

1295
01:58:36,986 --> 01:58:41,073
I already knew that,

1296
01:58:41,199 --> 01:58:46,745
three hours after arriving at Treblinka.

1297
01:59:01,052 --> 01:59:04,721
(♪ Man sings in German:
"Mandolinen um Mitternacht")

1298
02:00:47,742 --> 02:00:49,743
BERLIN

1299
02:00:50,912 --> 02:00:53,789
(Woman) This is no longer home,
you see?

1300
02:00:55,041 --> 02:00:58,126
And, especially, it's no longer home

1301
02:00:58,252 --> 02:01:02,714
when they start telling me that
they didn't know, they didn't know.

1302
02:01:02,840 --> 02:01:04,549
They say they didn't see.

1303
02:01:04,675 --> 02:01:06,802
"Yes, there were Jews
living in our house.

1304
02:01:06,928 --> 02:01:08,720
"One day,
they were no longer there.

1305
02:01:08,846 --> 02:01:11,264
"We didn't know what happened."

1306
02:01:12,266 --> 02:01:16,311
They couldn't help seeing it.
It was not a matter of one action.

1307
02:01:16,437 --> 02:01:21,066
These were actions that were
taking place over almost two years.

1308
02:01:21,692 --> 02:01:25,862
There was always... Every fortnight
people were torn out of the houses.

1309
02:01:25,988 --> 02:01:29,324
How could they escape it?
How could they not see it?

1310
02:01:31,536 --> 02:01:35,497
I remember that day on which
they made Berlin judenrein.

1311
02:01:35,623 --> 02:01:39,418
The people hastened in the streets.
They didn't want to be in the street.

1312
02:01:39,544 --> 02:01:42,754
You could see the streets
were absolutely empty.

1313
02:01:43,506 --> 02:01:45,340
They didn't want to look, you know?

1314
02:01:45,466 --> 02:01:47,843
They sort of hastened
to buy what they had to buy.

1315
02:01:47,969 --> 02:01:51,388
It was Saturday, and they had to buy
something for the Sunday, you see?

1316
02:01:51,514 --> 02:01:56,017
So they went shopping and
hastened back into their houses.

1317
02:02:02,859 --> 02:02:05,110
And I remember this day very vividly,

1318
02:02:05,236 --> 02:02:08,947
because we saw police cars

1319
02:02:09,073 --> 02:02:12,617
rushing through the streets of Berlin,

1320
02:02:12,743 --> 02:02:15,745
taking people out of the houses.

1321
02:02:16,247 --> 02:02:19,207
They had herded together
from factories, from the houses,

1322
02:02:19,333 --> 02:02:21,501
wherever they could find the Jews,

1323
02:02:21,627 --> 02:02:26,423
and had put them into something
that was called Klu.

1324
02:02:26,549 --> 02:02:31,928
Klu was a dance restaurant,
a very big one.

1325
02:02:32,388 --> 02:02:36,850
From there, they were deported
in various transports.

1326
02:02:38,019 --> 02:02:40,020
They were going off
not far from here,

1327
02:02:40,146 --> 02:02:43,064
on one of the tracks
of the Bahnhof Grunewald.

1328
02:02:46,319 --> 02:02:49,905
And this was a day when I felt so...

1329
02:02:50,031 --> 02:02:52,407
suddenly so utterly alone,

1330
02:02:52,533 --> 02:02:55,660
so utterly left alone...

1331
02:03:00,041 --> 02:03:04,252
...because now I knew we would be
one of the very few people left.

1332
02:03:04,378 --> 02:03:08,048
I didn't know how many more
would be underground.

1333
02:03:17,850 --> 02:03:22,687
And this was a day when I felt
very guilty that I didn't go myself,

1334
02:03:22,813 --> 02:03:29,319
that I tried to escape a fate
that the others could not escape.

1335
02:03:30,905 --> 02:03:36,952
There was no more warmth around,
no more soul akin to us, you understand?

1336
02:03:37,078 --> 02:03:38,537
And we talked about this.

1337
02:03:38,663 --> 02:03:41,998
"What happened to Elsa,
and what happened to Hans?"

1338
02:03:42,124 --> 02:03:45,460
"Where is he, and where is she?
Do you know this?"

1339
02:03:45,586 --> 02:03:47,754
"My God,
what happened to the child?"

1340
02:03:47,880 --> 02:03:51,716
You know, these were our talks
on that horrible day.

1341
02:03:51,842 --> 02:03:57,430
This feeling of being terribly alone
and terribly guilty that we did not go...

1342
02:03:57,557 --> 02:04:00,850
- (Lanzmann) Guilty?
- That we did not go with them.

1343
02:04:02,311 --> 02:04:04,312
(Man shouting in German)

1344
02:04:15,866 --> 02:04:18,535
Why did we try? Why? Why?

1345
02:04:18,661 --> 02:04:20,537
What made us do this,

1346
02:04:20,663 --> 02:04:23,248
to escape a fate
that was really our destiny

1347
02:04:23,374 --> 02:04:25,667
or the destiny of our people?

1348
02:04:25,793 --> 02:04:29,796
INGE DEUTSCHKRON
BORN IN BERLIN

1349
02:04:29,922 --> 02:04:34,009
LIVED THERE
THROUGH THE WAR

1350
02:04:34,135 --> 02:04:38,388
IN HIDING BEGINNING
IN FEBRUARY 1943

1351
02:04:38,514 --> 02:04:41,516
NOW LIVES IN ISRAEL

1352
02:05:15,301 --> 02:05:18,928
FRANZ SUCHOMEL:
SS Unterscharführer

1353
02:05:21,140 --> 02:05:24,934
(Lanzmann in German) Are you ready?
(Suchomel in German) Yes.

1354
02:05:25,061 --> 02:05:27,479
- (Lanzmann) Then we can...
- We can begin.

1355
02:05:27,605 --> 02:05:29,606
(Lanzmann) We can begin.

1356
02:05:31,442 --> 02:05:35,654
(Lanzmann) How's your heart?
Is everything in order?

1357
02:05:36,864 --> 02:05:39,741
(Suchomel) Oh, my heart...
For the moment, it's all right.

1358
02:05:39,867 --> 02:05:43,453
If I have any pain, I'll tell you.

1359
02:05:43,579 --> 02:05:46,915
- We'll have to break off.
- (Lanzmann) Of course.

1360
02:05:48,959 --> 02:05:51,378
But your health, in general, is...

1361
02:05:51,504 --> 02:05:55,256
(Suchomel) The weather today
suits me fine.

1362
02:05:55,383 --> 02:06:00,011
The barometric pressure is high.
That's good for me.

1363
02:06:00,137 --> 02:06:04,974
(Lanzmann) You look to be
in good shape, anyway.

1364
02:06:05,101 --> 02:06:10,230
- Let's begin with Treblinka.
- Certainly.

1365
02:06:10,356 --> 02:06:12,607
(Lanzmann) I think that's best.

1366
02:06:12,733 --> 02:06:16,903
If you could give us...

1367
02:06:18,447 --> 02:06:22,325
...a description of Treblinka.

1368
02:06:23,035 --> 02:06:26,413
How did it look when you arrived?

1369
02:06:26,539 --> 02:06:31,584
- I believe you got there in August?
- Mid-August.

1370
02:06:31,711 --> 02:06:35,547
- Was it August 20 or 24?
- 18th.

1371
02:06:35,673 --> 02:06:38,633
- The 18th?
- I don't know exactly.

1372
02:06:38,759 --> 02:06:42,095
Around August 20.

1373
02:06:42,221 --> 02:06:43,221
(Lanzmann) Yes.

1374
02:06:43,347 --> 02:06:47,308
(Suchomel) I arrived there
with seven other men.

1375
02:06:47,935 --> 02:06:50,854
- (Lanzmann) From Berlin?
- From Berlin.

1376
02:06:50,980 --> 02:06:52,814
(Lanzmann) From Lublin?

1377
02:06:53,482 --> 02:06:57,485
(Suchomel) From Berlin to Warsaw,
from Warsaw to Lublin,

1378
02:06:57,611 --> 02:07:03,158
from Lublin back to Warsaw
and from Warsaw to Treblinka.

1379
02:07:03,284 --> 02:07:07,620
(Lanzmann)
What was Treblinka like then?

1380
02:07:08,289 --> 02:07:13,209
Treblinka then was operating
at full capacity.

1381
02:07:13,794 --> 02:07:16,463
- Full capacity?
- Full capacity.

1382
02:07:18,132 --> 02:07:20,467
Trains arrived...

1383
02:07:21,761 --> 02:07:25,847
The Warsaw ghetto
was being emptied then.

1384
02:07:25,973 --> 02:07:27,348
Yes.

1385
02:07:27,975 --> 02:07:34,564
Three trains arrived in two days...

1386
02:07:36,108 --> 02:07:43,239
...each with three, four,
five thousand people aboard,

1387
02:07:44,200 --> 02:07:46,701
all from Warsaw.

1388
02:07:47,369 --> 02:07:52,540
But at the same time,
other trains came in

1389
02:07:53,417 --> 02:07:58,213
from Kielce and other places.

1390
02:07:59,215 --> 02:08:02,425
So three trains arrived,

1391
02:08:03,385 --> 02:08:09,599
and since the offensive
against Stalingrad was in fear,

1392
02:08:09,725 --> 02:08:14,646
the trainloads of Jews
were left on a station siding.

1393
02:08:15,606 --> 02:08:21,444
What's more,
the cars were French,

1394
02:08:21,570 --> 02:08:23,947
made of steel.

1395
02:08:24,073 --> 02:08:30,286
So that while 5,000 Jews
arrived in Treblinka,

1396
02:08:30,913 --> 02:08:33,665
3,000 were dead.

1397
02:08:34,333 --> 02:08:36,459
In the cars.

1398
02:08:36,585 --> 02:08:39,128
They had slashed their wrists,

1399
02:08:41,006 --> 02:08:43,883
or just died.

1400
02:08:46,512 --> 02:08:50,849
The ones we unloaded
were half-dead

1401
02:08:50,975 --> 02:08:55,937
and... half-mad.

1402
02:08:58,232 --> 02:09:04,070
In the other trains from Kielce

1403
02:09:04,196 --> 02:09:06,698
and elsewhere,

1404
02:09:07,408 --> 02:09:10,201
at least halfwere dead.

1405
02:09:11,161 --> 02:09:15,290
We stacked them here, here,

1406
02:09:17,334 --> 02:09:19,419
here and here.

1407
02:09:20,004 --> 02:09:22,881
Thousands of people

1408
02:09:23,883 --> 02:09:27,093
piled one on top of another.

1409
02:09:29,221 --> 02:09:31,556
- (Lanzmann) On the ramp?
- On the ramp.

1410
02:09:32,224 --> 02:09:35,643
Stacked like wood.

1411
02:09:35,769 --> 02:09:36,978
In addition,

1412
02:09:37,104 --> 02:09:42,817
other Jews, still alive,
waited there for two days.

1413
02:09:42,943 --> 02:09:47,280
The small gas chambers could
no longer handle the number.

1414
02:09:47,406 --> 02:09:54,287
They functioned
day and night in that period.

1415
02:09:54,413 --> 02:09:59,208
Can you please describe,
very precisely,

1416
02:09:59,335 --> 02:10:03,379
your first impression of Treblinka?

1417
02:10:03,505 --> 02:10:07,342
Very precisely. It's very important.

1418
02:10:07,468 --> 02:10:11,971
My first impression of Treblinka,

1419
02:10:12,598 --> 02:10:18,645
and that of some of the other men,
was catastrophic.

1420
02:10:19,563 --> 02:10:22,523
For we had not been told

1421
02:10:23,359 --> 02:10:28,780
how and what...
that people were being killed there.

1422
02:10:28,906 --> 02:10:30,406
They hadn't told us.

1423
02:10:30,532 --> 02:10:32,659
- You didn't know?
- No.

1424
02:10:33,285 --> 02:10:35,828
That's incredible.

1425
02:10:35,955 --> 02:10:39,999
But true. I didn't want to go.

1426
02:10:40,918 --> 02:10:43,586
- That was proved at my trial.
- Yes.

1427
02:10:43,712 --> 02:10:45,964
I was told,

1428
02:10:46,090 --> 02:10:48,007
"Mr. Suchomel,

1429
02:10:48,676 --> 02:10:52,929
"there are big workshops there
for tailors and shoemakers,

1430
02:10:53,055 --> 02:10:55,473
"and you'll be guarding them."

1431
02:10:55,599 --> 02:10:57,141
- Yes.
- Nothing more.

1432
02:10:57,267 --> 02:11:01,062
But you knew it was a camp?

1433
02:11:01,188 --> 02:11:03,815
Yes, we were told,

1434
02:11:03,941 --> 02:11:10,154
"The Führer ordered
a resettlement program.

1435
02:11:10,280 --> 02:11:14,033
"That's an order from the Führer."

1436
02:11:14,159 --> 02:11:15,910
- Understand?
- Resettlement program...

1437
02:11:16,036 --> 02:11:19,372
A resettlement program.

1438
02:11:20,249 --> 02:11:23,126
No one ever spoke of killing.

1439
02:11:23,252 --> 02:11:26,004
(Lanzmann) I understand.

1440
02:11:26,130 --> 02:11:30,341
Mr. Suchomel,
we're not discussing you,

1441
02:11:30,467 --> 02:11:32,385
only Treblinka.

1442
02:11:32,511 --> 02:11:35,888
You are a very important eyewitness,

1443
02:11:36,015 --> 02:11:40,810
and you can explain what Treblinka was.

1444
02:11:40,936 --> 02:11:47,025
- (Suchomel) But don't use my name.
- No, I promise.

1445
02:11:47,151 --> 02:11:49,110
(Suchomel mutters)

1446
02:11:49,236 --> 02:11:52,238
(Lanzmann)
All right, you've arrived at Treblinka.

1447
02:11:52,364 --> 02:11:59,037
(Suchomel) So Stadie, the sarge,
showed us the camp

1448
02:12:01,248 --> 02:12:04,876
From end to end.

1449
02:12:07,129 --> 02:12:10,882
Just as we went by,

1450
02:12:11,008 --> 02:12:16,637
they were opening
the gas chamber doors,

1451
02:12:16,764 --> 02:12:21,350
and people fell out like potatoes.

1452
02:12:24,688 --> 02:12:29,692
Naturally, that horrified
and appalled us.

1453
02:12:30,194 --> 02:12:34,781
We went back and sat down
on our suitcases

1454
02:12:34,907 --> 02:12:38,367
and cried like old women.

1455
02:12:42,873 --> 02:12:47,543
Each day, 100 Jews were chosen

1456
02:12:48,170 --> 02:12:52,215
to drag the corpses to the mass graves.

1457
02:12:53,550 --> 02:13:01,550
In the evening, the Ukrainians drove
those Jews into the gas chambers

1458
02:13:01,683 --> 02:13:03,267
or shot them.

1459
02:13:03,393 --> 02:13:05,144
Every day.

1460
02:13:07,606 --> 02:13:10,817
It was in the hottest days of August.

1461
02:13:14,279 --> 02:13:19,200
The ground undulated like waves

1462
02:13:19,326 --> 02:13:21,035
because of the gas.

1463
02:13:21,161 --> 02:13:23,704
- (Lanzmann) From the bodies?
- Yes.

1464
02:13:23,831 --> 02:13:29,252
Bear in mind, the graves were
maybe 18, 20 feet deep.

1465
02:13:29,378 --> 02:13:33,798
All crammed with bodies.

1466
02:13:34,591 --> 02:13:39,137
A thin layer of sand
and the heat. You see?

1467
02:13:39,263 --> 02:13:41,514
It was hell up there.

1468
02:13:41,640 --> 02:13:46,894
- (Lanzmann) You saw that?
- Yes, just once, the first day.

1469
02:13:47,020 --> 02:13:49,981
We puked and wept.

1470
02:13:50,107 --> 02:13:52,733
- You wept?
- We wept too, yes.

1471
02:13:57,030 --> 02:13:59,907
- The smell was infernal.
- Infernal?

1472
02:14:00,033 --> 02:14:04,245
Yes, because gas was
constantly escaping.

1473
02:14:04,371 --> 02:14:09,000
It stank horribly, for miles around.

1474
02:14:09,126 --> 02:14:11,294
- Miles?
- Miles!

1475
02:14:11,420 --> 02:14:14,255
- You could smell it all around?
- All around!

1476
02:14:14,381 --> 02:14:16,382
Not just in the camp?

1477
02:14:16,508 --> 02:14:20,636
Everywhere.
It depended on the wind.

1478
02:14:20,762 --> 02:14:23,723
The stink was carried on the wind.

1479
02:14:24,725 --> 02:14:26,642
Understand?

1480
02:14:34,776 --> 02:14:38,988
(Suchomel) More people kept coming,
always more,

1481
02:14:39,114 --> 02:14:42,950
whom we hadn't the facilities to kill.

1482
02:14:48,832 --> 02:14:54,170
Those gents were in a rush
to clean out the Warsaw ghetto.

1483
02:14:57,507 --> 02:15:01,469
The gas chambers
couldn't handle the load.

1484
02:15:01,595 --> 02:15:04,138
The small gas chambers.

1485
02:15:20,697 --> 02:15:24,242
The Jews had to wait their turn

1486
02:15:24,368 --> 02:15:28,871
for a day, 2 days, 3 days.

1487
02:15:35,170 --> 02:15:37,546
They foresaw what was coming.

1488
02:15:38,674 --> 02:15:41,217
They foresaw it.

1489
02:15:42,552 --> 02:15:47,890
They may not have been certain,
but many knew.

1490
02:15:52,729 --> 02:15:57,358
There were Jewish women

1491
02:15:57,901 --> 02:16:01,821
who slashed
their daughters' wrists at night,

1492
02:16:01,947 --> 02:16:05,283
then cut their own.

1493
02:16:06,076 --> 02:16:08,786
Others poisoned themselves.

1494
02:16:10,080 --> 02:16:15,626
They heard the engine
feeding the gas chamber.

1495
02:16:18,755 --> 02:16:23,342
A tank engine was used
in that gas chamber.

1496
02:16:25,137 --> 02:16:30,683
At Treblinka, the only gas used
was engine exhaust.

1497
02:16:31,143 --> 02:16:33,561
Zyklon gas, that was Auschwitz.

1498
02:16:40,235 --> 02:16:44,071
Because of the delay,

1499
02:16:44,823 --> 02:16:49,618
Eberl, the camp commandant,

1500
02:16:50,579 --> 02:16:54,915
phoned Lublin and said,

1501
02:16:55,667 --> 02:16:59,795
"We can't go on this way.
I can't do it any longer.

1502
02:16:59,921 --> 02:17:04,091
"We have to break off."

1503
02:17:04,217 --> 02:17:07,928
Overnight, Wirth arrived.

1504
02:17:09,056 --> 02:17:12,767
He inspected everything and then left.

1505
02:17:12,893 --> 02:17:17,021
He returned with people from Belzec,

1506
02:17:17,147 --> 02:17:19,482
experts.

1507
02:17:20,650 --> 02:17:25,279
Wirth arranged to suspend the trains.

1508
02:17:27,824 --> 02:17:32,828
The corpses lying there
were cleared away.

1509
02:17:34,331 --> 02:17:38,959
That was the period
of the old gas chambers.

1510
02:17:39,503 --> 02:17:44,548
Because there were so many dead

1511
02:17:44,674 --> 02:17:47,426
that couldn't be gotten rid of,

1512
02:17:48,011 --> 02:17:52,264
for days and days,

1513
02:17:53,600 --> 02:17:58,729
the bodies piled up
around the gas chambers.

1514
02:18:00,023 --> 02:18:04,402
Under this pile of bodies
was a cesspool,

1515
02:18:05,153 --> 02:18:09,740
three inches deep,
full of blood, worms...

1516
02:18:11,368 --> 02:18:13,577
...and shit.

1517
02:18:15,789 --> 02:18:19,708
- Where?
- In front of the gas chamber.

1518
02:18:21,545 --> 02:18:24,296
No one wanted to clean it out.

1519
02:18:24,423 --> 02:18:28,467
The Jews preferred to be shot

1520
02:18:29,594 --> 02:18:32,430
rather than work there.

1521
02:18:33,098 --> 02:18:35,599
- Preferred to be shot?
- To be shot.

1522
02:18:38,437 --> 02:18:44,358
It was awful. Burying
their own people, seeing it all...

1523
02:18:44,484 --> 02:18:48,863
The dead flesh came off
in their hands.

1524
02:18:49,948 --> 02:18:53,033
So Wirth went there himself

1525
02:18:54,077 --> 02:18:56,078
with a few Germans

1526
02:18:57,831 --> 02:19:01,834
and he had long belts rigged up

1527
02:19:02,294 --> 02:19:06,839
that were wrapped around
the dead torsos to pull them.

1528
02:19:06,965 --> 02:19:09,383
- Who did that?
- The SS men.

1529
02:19:09,509 --> 02:19:11,552
- Wirth?
- SS men and Jews.

1530
02:19:11,678 --> 02:19:14,138
- SS men and Jews?
- And Jews.

1531
02:19:14,264 --> 02:19:17,183
- But Jews too?
- Jews too!

1532
02:19:19,144 --> 02:19:23,397
What did the Germans do?

1533
02:19:23,523 --> 02:19:26,734
They forced the Jews to...

1534
02:19:26,860 --> 02:19:29,069
They beat them?

1535
02:19:29,196 --> 02:19:34,617
Or they themselves helped
with the clean-up.

1536
02:19:34,743 --> 02:19:37,745
Which Germans did that?

1537
02:19:39,247 --> 02:19:45,419
Some of our guards
who were assigned up there.

1538
02:19:48,089 --> 02:19:52,801
- The Germans themselves?
- They had to.

1539
02:19:53,261 --> 02:19:54,678
They were in command.

1540
02:19:54,804 --> 02:20:00,226
They were in command,
but they were also commanded.

1541
02:20:00,352 --> 02:20:03,229
(Lanzmann)
I think the Jews did it.

1542
02:20:05,065 --> 02:20:10,986
In that case,
the Germans had to lend a hand.

1543
02:20:12,822 --> 02:20:16,867
THE BLACK EXECUTION WALL
IN THE COURTYARD OF BLOCK II

1544
02:20:18,995 --> 02:20:23,123
AT AUSCHWITZ I,
THE ORIGINAL CAMP

1545
02:20:25,710 --> 02:20:29,672
(Lanzmann in German)
Filip, on that Sunday in May 71942,

1546
02:20:29,798 --> 02:20:36,387
when you first entered
the Auschwitz crematorium,

1547
02:20:36,513 --> 02:20:38,514
how old were you?

1548
02:20:39,391 --> 02:20:41,183
(Filip) Twenty.

1549
02:20:48,692 --> 02:20:51,694
It was a Sunday in May.

1550
02:20:59,369 --> 02:21:04,748
We were locked
in an underground cell in Block 11.

1551
02:21:06,293 --> 02:21:09,044
We were held in secret.

1552
02:21:13,341 --> 02:21:17,052
Then some SS men appeared

1553
02:21:18,888 --> 02:21:23,726
and marched us
along a street in the camp.

1554
02:21:34,029 --> 02:21:38,115
We went through a gate,

1555
02:21:44,581 --> 02:21:47,333
and around 300 feet away,

1556
02:21:48,293 --> 02:21:50,794
300 feet from the gate,

1557
02:21:51,379 --> 02:21:55,007
I suddenly saw a building.

1558
02:21:55,133 --> 02:22:00,846
It had a flat roof,
and a smokestack.

1559
02:22:09,773 --> 02:22:12,858
I saw a door in the rear.

1560
02:22:16,696 --> 02:22:22,368
I thought they were taking us
to be shot.

1561
02:22:24,663 --> 02:22:27,748
FILIP MULLER - CZECH JEW

1562
02:22:27,874 --> 02:22:32,753
SURVIVOR OF FIVE LIQUIDATIONS
OF AUSCHWITZ "SPECIAL DETAIL"

1563
02:22:35,548 --> 02:22:39,426
Suddenly, before a door,

1564
02:22:40,595 --> 02:22:46,225
under a lamp
in the middle of this building,

1565
02:22:46,351 --> 02:22:51,480
a young SS man told us,

1566
02:22:51,606 --> 02:22:54,692
"Inside, filthy swine!"

1567
02:22:54,818 --> 02:22:58,487
We entered a corridor.

1568
02:22:59,781 --> 02:23:02,658
They drove us along it.

1569
02:23:14,337 --> 02:23:20,342
Right away, the stench,
the smoke choked me.

1570
02:23:29,978 --> 02:23:32,730
They kept on chasing us,

1571
02:23:34,023 --> 02:23:38,402
and then I made out the shapes

1572
02:23:39,404 --> 02:23:42,906
of the first two ovens.

1573
02:23:48,037 --> 02:23:52,624
Between the ovens,
some Jewish prisoners were working.

1574
02:23:58,381 --> 02:24:03,469
We were in the crematorium's
incineration chamber

1575
02:24:03,928 --> 02:24:06,764
in Camp I at Auschwitz.

1576
02:24:13,271 --> 02:24:14,813
From there,

1577
02:24:15,315 --> 02:24:21,403
they herded us to another big room,

1578
02:24:25,658 --> 02:24:30,954
and told us to undress the corpses.

1579
02:24:33,666 --> 02:24:36,126
I looked around me.

1580
02:24:39,255 --> 02:24:42,841
There were hundreds of bodies,

1581
02:24:44,260 --> 02:24:46,637
all dressed.

1582
02:24:48,306 --> 02:24:51,058
Piled with the corpses

1583
02:24:52,352 --> 02:24:55,437
were suitcases, bundles

1584
02:24:56,147 --> 02:24:58,232
and, scattered everywhere,

1585
02:24:58,817 --> 02:25:02,903
strange, bluish-purple crystals.

1586
02:25:03,029 --> 02:25:06,281
I couldn't understand any of it.

1587
02:25:13,581 --> 02:25:19,628
It was like a blow to the head,
as if you'd been stunned.

1588
02:25:19,754 --> 02:25:22,965
I didn't even know where I was.

1589
02:25:23,091 --> 02:25:25,717
Above all, I couldn't understand

1590
02:25:25,844 --> 02:25:30,097
how they managed to kill
so many people at once.

1591
02:25:32,642 --> 02:25:36,061
When we undressed some of them,

1592
02:25:36,187 --> 02:25:40,107
the order was given to feed the ovens.

1593
02:25:44,612 --> 02:25:49,241
Suddenly, an SS man
rushed up and told me,

1594
02:25:49,367 --> 02:25:52,995
"Get out of here!
Go and stir the bodies!"

1595
02:25:53,121 --> 02:25:57,583
What did he mean,
"Stir the bodies"?

1596
02:25:58,126 --> 02:26:02,671
I entered the cremation chamber.

1597
02:26:02,797 --> 02:26:07,384
There was a Jewish prisoner,

1598
02:26:07,510 --> 02:26:11,597
Fischel, who later became
a squad leader.

1599
02:26:12,098 --> 02:26:13,849
He looked at me,

1600
02:26:14,517 --> 02:26:21,064
and I watched him
poke the fire with a long rod.

1601
02:26:21,649 --> 02:26:25,360
He told me, "Do as I'm doing

1602
02:26:25,486 --> 02:26:28,655
"or the SS will kill you."

1603
02:26:29,282 --> 02:26:32,826
I picked up a poker

1604
02:26:32,952 --> 02:26:35,621
and did as he was doing.

1605
02:26:35,747 --> 02:26:38,040
(Lanzmann) A poker?

1606
02:26:38,166 --> 02:26:40,125
A steel poker.

1607
02:26:41,210 --> 02:26:44,588
I obeyed Fischel's order.

1608
02:26:44,714 --> 02:26:49,760
At that point, I was in shock
as if I'd been hypnotised,

1609
02:26:50,511 --> 02:26:56,266
and ready to do

1610
02:26:56,392 --> 02:26:58,852
whatever I was told.

1611
02:26:58,978 --> 02:27:05,692
I was so mindless, so horrified,

1612
02:27:05,818 --> 02:27:13,818
that I did everything Fischel told me.

1613
02:27:14,452 --> 02:27:17,454
So the ovens were fed,

1614
02:27:18,206 --> 02:27:22,000
but we were so inexperienced

1615
02:27:23,044 --> 02:27:31,044
that we left the fans on too long.

1616
02:27:31,761 --> 02:27:34,763
- The fans?
- Yes.

1617
02:27:34,889 --> 02:27:39,184
There were fans
to make the fire hotter.

1618
02:27:39,644 --> 02:27:43,563
They worked too long...

1619
02:27:43,690 --> 02:27:48,986
The firebrick suddenly exploded,

1620
02:27:49,988 --> 02:27:55,158
blocking the pipes

1621
02:27:55,284 --> 02:27:58,704
linking the Auschwitz crematorium

1622
02:27:59,497 --> 02:28:02,791
with the smokestack.

1623
02:28:04,711 --> 02:28:08,922
Cremation was interrupted.

1624
02:28:09,549 --> 02:28:13,218
The ovens were out of action.

1625
02:28:15,805 --> 02:28:20,559
That evening, some trucks came,

1626
02:28:20,685 --> 02:28:22,936
and we had to load the rest,

1627
02:28:23,062 --> 02:28:26,148
some 300 bodies,

1628
02:28:26,274 --> 02:28:29,151
into the trucks.

1629
02:28:29,277 --> 02:28:34,281
Then we were taken...

1630
02:28:36,284 --> 02:28:39,327
I still don't know where,

1631
02:28:39,454 --> 02:28:44,416
but probably to a field at Birkenau.

1632
02:28:48,713 --> 02:28:55,343
We were ordered
to unload the bodies

1633
02:28:55,470 --> 02:29:01,850
and put them in a pit.

1634
02:29:02,435 --> 02:29:06,396
There was a ditch, an artificial pit.

1635
02:29:06,522 --> 02:29:10,025
Suddenly, water gushed up
from underground

1636
02:29:10,151 --> 02:29:13,361
and swept the bodies down.

1637
02:29:18,826 --> 02:29:23,747
When night came,
we had to stop that horrible work.

1638
02:29:24,707 --> 02:29:27,167
We were loaded into the trucks

1639
02:29:27,293 --> 02:29:31,713
and returned to Auschwitz.

1640
02:29:36,344 --> 02:29:38,178
The next day,

1641
02:29:38,304 --> 02:29:44,935
we were taken to the same place.

1642
02:29:52,527 --> 02:29:55,529
But the water had risen.

1643
02:29:57,198 --> 02:30:01,034
Some SS men came
with a fire truck

1644
02:30:01,160 --> 02:30:04,663
and pumped out the water.

1645
02:30:05,915 --> 02:30:09,918
We had to go down
into that muddy pit

1646
02:30:10,044 --> 02:30:13,755
to stack up the bodies.

1647
02:30:17,051 --> 02:30:18,760
But they were slimy.

1648
02:30:18,886 --> 02:30:23,265
For example, I grasped a woman,

1649
02:30:23,391 --> 02:30:25,684
but her hands...

1650
02:30:25,810 --> 02:30:28,103
Her hand was slippery, slimy.

1651
02:30:28,229 --> 02:30:30,814
I tried to pull her,

1652
02:30:30,940 --> 02:30:37,612
but I fell over backward,
into the water, the mud.

1653
02:30:39,198 --> 02:30:41,658
It was the same for all of us.

1654
02:30:41,784 --> 02:30:47,831
Up above, at the edge of the pit,
Aumeyer and Grabner yelled,

1655
02:30:47,957 --> 02:30:51,918
"Get cracking, you filth, you bastards!

1656
02:30:52,044 --> 02:30:56,673
"We'll show you,
you bunch of shits!"

1657
02:30:56,799 --> 02:31:00,177
These were the names
they were calling us.

1658
02:31:00,303 --> 02:31:02,304
And in these...

1659
02:31:07,768 --> 02:31:10,353
How shall I say?
...circumstances,

1660
02:31:11,772 --> 02:31:16,651
two of my friends
couldn't take any more.

1661
02:31:16,777 --> 02:31:19,529
One was a French student.

1662
02:31:20,656 --> 02:31:24,826
- Jews?
- All Jews. They were exhausted.

1663
02:31:27,872 --> 02:31:33,877
They just lay there...

1664
02:31:34,712 --> 02:31:37,756
in the mud.

1665
02:31:37,882 --> 02:31:41,760
Aumeyer called one of his SS men.

1666
02:31:41,886 --> 02:31:45,222
"Go on, finish off those swine!"

1667
02:31:48,684 --> 02:31:53,271
They were exhausted.
And they were shot in the pit.

1668
02:31:59,237 --> 02:32:04,616
(Lanzmann) There was
no crematorium at Birkenau then?

1669
02:32:05,326 --> 02:32:09,788
(Muller)
No, there weren't any there yet.

1670
02:32:11,457 --> 02:32:14,459
Birkenau still wasn't completely set up.

1671
02:32:14,961 --> 02:32:20,382
Only Camp B 1, which was
the late women is camp, existed.

1672
02:32:26,764 --> 02:32:30,517
It wasn't until the spring of 1943

1673
02:32:30,643 --> 02:32:36,147
that skilled workmen
and unskilled labourers, all Jews,

1674
02:32:36,274 --> 02:32:38,817
must have gone to work here

1675
02:32:38,943 --> 02:32:42,153
and built the four crematoria.

1676
02:32:45,533 --> 02:32:48,743
Each crematorium had 15 ovens,

1677
02:32:49,870 --> 02:32:54,708
a big undressing room,
around 3,000 square feet,

1678
02:32:55,543 --> 02:32:57,752
and a big gas chamber

1679
02:32:57,878 --> 02:33:02,507
where up to 3,000 people at once
could be gassed.

1680
02:33:05,219 --> 02:33:06,636
TREBLINKA

1681
02:33:06,762 --> 02:33:12,058
(Suchomel) The new gas chambers
were built in September 1942.

1682
02:33:12,560 --> 02:33:14,894
(Lanzmann) Who built them?

1683
02:33:15,396 --> 02:33:23,320
Hackenhold and Lambert supervised
the Jews who did the work,

1684
02:33:23,446 --> 02:33:25,989
the bricklaying, at least.

1685
02:33:27,450 --> 02:33:33,747
Ukrainian carpenters made the doors.

1686
02:33:35,583 --> 02:33:39,252
The gas chamber doors themselves

1687
02:33:39,378 --> 02:33:43,465
were armoured bunker doors.

1688
02:33:43,591 --> 02:33:47,469
I think they were brought
from Bialystok,

1689
02:33:47,595 --> 02:33:50,180
from some Russian bunkers.

1690
02:33:52,058 --> 02:33:54,100
FRANZ SUCHOMEL

1691
02:33:54,226 --> 02:33:58,355
What was the capacity
of the new gas chambers?

1692
02:33:58,481 --> 02:34:01,066
- There were two of them, right?
- Yes.

1693
02:34:01,192 --> 02:34:07,364
But the old ones hadn't
been demolished.

1694
02:34:08,866 --> 02:34:13,161
When there were a lot of trains,
a lot of people,

1695
02:34:13,287 --> 02:34:16,831
the old ovens
were put back into service.

1696
02:34:18,459 --> 02:34:23,963
And here... the Jews say
there were five on each side.

1697
02:34:24,090 --> 02:34:26,424
I say there were four,

1698
02:34:26,550 --> 02:34:28,760
but I'm not sure.

1699
02:34:28,886 --> 02:34:32,389
In any case, only the upper row,

1700
02:34:34,100 --> 02:34:36,017
on this side,

1701
02:34:36,894 --> 02:34:39,813
was in action.

1702
02:34:39,939 --> 02:34:42,273
(Lanzmann)
Why not the other side?

1703
02:34:42,400 --> 02:34:49,114
(Suchomel) Disposing of the bodies
would have been too complicated.

1704
02:34:49,824 --> 02:34:51,282
- Too far?
- Yes.

1705
02:34:51,409 --> 02:34:56,996
Up there, Wirth had built
the death camp,

1706
02:34:57,915 --> 02:35:04,337
assigning a detail
of Jewish workers to it.

1707
02:35:05,131 --> 02:35:08,716
The detail had a fixed number in it,

1708
02:35:08,843 --> 02:35:12,011
around 200 people.

1709
02:35:13,013 --> 02:35:15,056
(Lanzmann speaks German)

1710
02:35:15,182 --> 02:35:19,227
(Suchomel) ...who worked
only in the death camp.

1711
02:35:19,353 --> 02:35:24,232
(Lanzmann) But what was the capacity
of the new gas chambers?

1712
02:35:24,358 --> 02:35:28,695
The new gas chambers...
Let's see...

1713
02:35:29,530 --> 02:35:34,200
They could finish off 3,000 people
in two hours.

1714
02:35:36,954 --> 02:35:42,125
(Lanzmann) How many people
at once in a single gas chamber?

1715
02:35:42,251 --> 02:35:45,378
I can't say exactly.

1716
02:35:45,504 --> 02:35:47,881
The Jews say 200.

1717
02:35:48,424 --> 02:35:51,301
- 200?
- That's right, 200.

1718
02:35:52,553 --> 02:35:58,266
Imagine a room this size.

1719
02:35:58,392 --> 02:36:00,643
(Lanzmann)
They put more in at Auschwitz.

1720
02:36:00,769 --> 02:36:03,271
Auschwitz was a factory!

1721
02:36:05,232 --> 02:36:07,817
(Lanzmann) And Treblinka?

1722
02:36:07,943 --> 02:36:10,945
I'll give you my definition.

1723
02:36:11,780 --> 02:36:13,448
Keep this in mind.

1724
02:36:13,574 --> 02:36:19,162
Treblinka was a primitive,

1725
02:36:19,830 --> 02:36:26,294
but efficient production line of death.

1726
02:36:26,420 --> 02:36:29,214
- A production line?
- Of death.

1727
02:36:30,174 --> 02:36:32,342
- Understand?
- Yes.

1728
02:36:36,680 --> 02:36:40,892
- But primitive...?
- Primitive, yes.

1729
02:36:42,019 --> 02:36:47,065
But it worked well,
that production line of death.

1730
02:36:47,191 --> 02:36:50,360
Was Belzec even more rudimentary?

1731
02:36:50,486 --> 02:36:53,863
Belzec was the laboratory.

1732
02:36:53,989 --> 02:36:58,409
Wirth was camp commandant.

1733
02:36:59,745 --> 02:37:04,415
He tried everything imaginable there.

1734
02:37:05,417 --> 02:37:08,920
He got off on the wrong foot.

1735
02:37:09,046 --> 02:37:11,005
The pits were overflowing,

1736
02:37:11,131 --> 02:37:16,844
and the cesspool seeped out
in front of the SS mess hall.

1737
02:37:16,971 --> 02:37:18,638
It stank...

1738
02:37:19,640 --> 02:37:23,059
in front of the mess-hall,
in front of their barracks.

1739
02:37:23,185 --> 02:37:26,020
- Were you at Belzec?
- No.

1740
02:37:26,647 --> 02:37:29,691
Wirth with his own men.

1741
02:37:30,317 --> 02:37:33,278
With Franz, with Oberhauser

1742
02:37:33,862 --> 02:37:35,572
and Hackenhold,

1743
02:37:35,698 --> 02:37:37,699
he tried everything there.

1744
02:37:38,701 --> 02:37:44,998
Those three had to put the bodies
in the pits themselves

1745
02:37:46,041 --> 02:37:51,921
so that Wirth could see
how much space he needed.

1746
02:37:52,923 --> 02:37:56,384
And when they rebelled...

1747
02:37:56,510 --> 02:37:57,677
Franz refused.

1748
02:37:57,803 --> 02:38:00,763
Wirth beat Franz with a whip.

1749
02:38:00,889 --> 02:38:03,600
He whipped Hackenhold, too.
You see?

1750
02:38:03,726 --> 02:38:05,560
- Kurt Franz?
- Kurt Franz.

1751
02:38:07,855 --> 02:38:09,522
That's how Wirth was.

1752
02:38:09,648 --> 02:38:13,276
Then,
with that experience behind him,

1753
02:38:14,695 --> 02:38:16,237
he came to Treblinka.

1754
02:38:17,072 --> 02:38:19,073
(People chatting in German)

1755
02:38:45,893 --> 02:38:47,894
(Glasses clinking)

1756
02:39:51,083 --> 02:39:53,334
(Woman speaks German)

1757
02:39:56,130 --> 02:40:03,177
(Lanzmann) Excuse me. How many
quarts of beer a day do you sell?

1758
02:40:05,973 --> 02:40:08,224
You can't tell me?

1759
02:40:10,352 --> 02:40:14,230
(Man) I'd rather not.
I have my reasons.

1760
02:40:14,356 --> 02:40:16,566
- But why not?
- Yes.

1761
02:40:16,692 --> 02:40:18,818
(Man) Two Pilsners.

1762
02:40:19,278 --> 02:40:20,695
Yes.

1763
02:40:22,990 --> 02:40:29,287
(Lanzmann) How many quarts
of beer a day do you sell?

1764
02:40:31,373 --> 02:40:33,958
- Go on, tell him.
- Tell him what?

1765
02:40:34,084 --> 02:40:37,378
Just tell him approximately.

1766
02:40:37,504 --> 02:40:40,923
How many quarts of beer a day
do you sell?

1767
02:40:41,049 --> 02:40:42,133
400, 500 quarts.

1768
02:40:42,259 --> 02:40:44,886
- What?
- 400, 500 quarts.

1769
02:40:45,763 --> 02:40:46,804
Here.

1770
02:40:46,930 --> 02:40:48,931
That's a lot.

1771
02:40:49,057 --> 02:40:51,434
(Indistinct German)

1772
02:40:55,439 --> 02:40:58,316
Have you worked here long?

1773
02:40:59,777 --> 02:41:03,446
- Around 20 years.
- 20 years?

1774
02:41:03,572 --> 02:41:04,572
Yes.

1775
02:41:04,615 --> 02:41:07,784
- Why are you hiding...?
- I have my reasons.

1776
02:41:07,910 --> 02:41:11,329
- ...your face?
- I have my reasons.

1777
02:41:11,455 --> 02:41:13,372
What reasons?

1778
02:41:15,375 --> 02:41:18,544
- Never mind.
- Why not?

1779
02:41:31,850 --> 02:41:34,018
(Lanzmann)
Do you recognise this man?

1780
02:41:36,563 --> 02:41:38,064
No?

1781
02:41:38,190 --> 02:41:39,941
Christian Wirth?

1782
02:41:40,067 --> 02:41:41,859
Mr. Oberhauser.

1783
02:41:42,361 --> 02:41:44,278
Do you remember Belzec?

1784
02:41:45,572 --> 02:41:48,199
No memories of Belzec?

1785
02:41:49,034 --> 02:41:54,163
No?

1786
02:41:58,252 --> 02:42:03,172
Of the overflowing graves?

1787
02:42:14,226 --> 02:42:16,185
You don't remember?

1788
02:42:22,359 --> 02:42:25,403
MUNICH

1789
02:42:36,248 --> 02:42:38,791
WUPPERTAL
ANTON SPIESS

1790
02:42:38,917 --> 02:42:43,170
GERMAN STATE PROSECUTOR AT
TREBLINKA TRIAL, FRANKFURT 1960

1791
02:42:48,760 --> 02:42:53,931
(Spiess in German) When the Action
it selffirst got under way,

1792
02:42:54,057 --> 02:42:57,101
it was almost totally improvised.

1793
02:43:00,272 --> 02:43:04,775
At Treblinka, for example,

1794
02:43:04,902 --> 02:43:09,947
the commandant, Dr. Eberl,
let more trains come in

1795
02:43:10,073 --> 02:43:14,660
than the camp could handle.

1796
02:43:15,287 --> 02:43:17,330
It was a disaster!

1797
02:43:17,456 --> 02:43:19,582
Mountains of corpses!

1798
02:43:20,167 --> 02:43:25,046
Word of this foul-up

1799
02:43:25,172 --> 02:43:29,216
reached the head
of the Reinhard Action,

1800
02:43:29,343 --> 02:43:32,845
Odilo Globocznik, in Lublin.

1801
02:43:32,971 --> 02:43:35,723
He went to Treblinka

1802
02:43:35,849 --> 02:43:40,686
to see what was happening.

1803
02:43:40,812 --> 02:43:44,857
There's a very concrete
account of the trip

1804
02:43:44,983 --> 02:43:48,903
by his former driver, Oberhauser.

1805
02:43:49,029 --> 02:43:52,156
Globocznik arrived
on a hot day in August.

1806
02:43:52,282 --> 02:43:57,328
The camp was permeated

1807
02:43:58,330 --> 02:44:02,083
with the stench of rotting flesh.

1808
02:44:02,209 --> 02:44:09,006
Globocznik didn't even bother
to enter the camp.

1809
02:44:09,132 --> 02:44:11,968
He stopped here,
before the commandant's office,

1810
02:44:12,094 --> 02:44:14,136
sent for Dr. Eberl

1811
02:44:14,262 --> 02:44:18,432
and greeted him with these words,

1812
02:44:18,558 --> 02:44:22,853
"How dare you accept
so many every day

1813
02:44:22,980 --> 02:44:25,940
"when you can only process 3,000?"

1814
02:44:34,032 --> 02:44:36,826
Operations were suspended,

1815
02:44:37,452 --> 02:44:40,955
Eberl was transferred and Wirth came,

1816
02:44:42,249 --> 02:44:45,001
followed immediately by Stangl,

1817
02:44:46,294 --> 02:44:50,464
and the camp was
completely reorganised.

1818
02:45:00,183 --> 02:45:04,270
The Reinhard Action covered
three extermination camps:

1819
02:45:04,396 --> 02:45:08,190
Treblinka, Sobibor and Belzec.

1820
02:45:08,316 --> 02:45:13,112
There's also talk of three
death camps on the Bug River,

1821
02:45:13,238 --> 02:45:17,450
for they were all located
on or near the Bug.

1822
02:45:21,788 --> 02:45:25,666
The gas chambers
were the heart of the camp.

1823
02:45:27,627 --> 02:45:30,379
They were built first,

1824
02:45:30,505 --> 02:45:34,175
in the woods, or in a field,
as at Treblinka.

1825
02:45:34,843 --> 02:45:39,847
The gas chambers were
the only stone buildings.

1826
02:45:40,640 --> 02:45:44,185
All the others were wooden sheds.

1827
02:45:44,686 --> 02:45:48,189
These camps weren't built to last.

1828
02:45:49,524 --> 02:45:54,236
Himmler was in a hurry
to begin the 'final solution'.

1829
02:45:54,362 --> 02:45:58,616
The Germans had to capitalise
on their eastward advance

1830
02:45:58,742 --> 02:46:00,951
and use this remote back-country

1831
02:46:01,078 --> 02:46:08,459
to carry out their mass murder
as secretly as possible.

1832
02:46:13,381 --> 02:46:15,925
So at first, they couldn't
manage the perfection

1833
02:46:16,051 --> 02:46:19,136
they achieved three months later.

1834
02:46:30,273 --> 02:46:32,274
(Piwonski speaks Polish)

1835
02:46:36,154 --> 02:46:38,489
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in French)
Near the end of March 1942...

1836
02:46:38,615 --> 02:46:41,492
(Piwonski continues)

1837
02:46:45,205 --> 02:46:49,250
...sizeable groups of Jews
were herded here,

1838
02:46:49,376 --> 02:46:51,502
groups of 50 to 100 people.

1839
02:46:52,921 --> 02:46:54,755
(Piwonski continues)

1840
02:46:56,967 --> 02:46:59,051
Several trains arrived...

1841
02:47:06,309 --> 02:47:10,271
...with sections of barracks,
with posts, barbed wire, bricks...

1842
02:47:17,696 --> 02:47:21,574
...and construction
of the camp as such began.

1843
02:47:23,160 --> 02:47:25,494
(Train whistle blows)

1844
02:47:28,081 --> 02:47:31,083
(Piwonski continues in Polish)

1845
02:47:33,295 --> 02:47:36,005
(Interpreter)
The Jews unloaded these cars...

1846
02:47:40,427 --> 02:47:43,762
...and carted the sections
of barracks to the camp.

1847
02:47:52,939 --> 02:47:56,692
The Germans made them
work extremely fast.

1848
02:48:07,954 --> 02:48:11,040
When we saw the pace
they worked at...

1849
02:48:19,841 --> 02:48:22,051
It was extremely brutal.

1850
02:48:30,727 --> 02:48:35,064
When we saw the complex being built,
and the fence,

1851
02:48:35,190 --> 02:48:38,442
which, after all,
enclosed a vast space...

1852
02:48:38,568 --> 02:48:40,569
(Piwonski continues)

1853
02:48:46,326 --> 02:48:50,329
...we realised that
what the Germans were building

1854
02:48:50,455 --> 02:48:52,748
wasn't meant to aid mankind.

1855
02:48:55,961 --> 02:48:57,503
(Birds chirping)

1856
02:48:57,629 --> 02:48:59,630
(Piwonski continues)

1857
02:49:03,426 --> 02:49:05,803
(Interpreter) Early in June...

1858
02:49:12,769 --> 02:49:14,687
...the first convoy arrived.

1859
02:49:18,525 --> 02:49:20,734
I'd say there were over 40 cars.

1860
02:49:27,075 --> 02:49:30,619
With the convoy were SS men
in black uniforms.

1861
02:49:35,333 --> 02:49:39,086
It happened one afternoon.
He had just finished work.

1862
02:49:39,212 --> 02:49:41,297
JAN PIWONSKI

1863
02:49:43,883 --> 02:49:47,177
But he got on his bicycle and went home.

1864
02:49:48,263 --> 02:49:49,888
(Lanzmann) Why?

1865
02:50:01,735 --> 02:50:03,986
I merely thought

1866
02:50:04,112 --> 02:50:08,115
that these people
had come to build the camp,

1867
02:50:08,241 --> 02:50:10,909
as the others had before them.

1868
02:50:12,620 --> 02:50:14,246
That convoy...

1869
02:50:15,790 --> 02:50:19,251
...there was no way
of knowing that it was...

1870
02:50:23,256 --> 02:50:25,424
...the first earmarked
for extermination.

1871
02:50:26,843 --> 02:50:32,306
And besides... he couldn't
have known that Sobibor...

1872
02:50:32,432 --> 02:50:34,308
(Piwonski continues)

1873
02:50:34,434 --> 02:50:39,104
...would be a place for the mass
extermination of the Jews.

1874
02:50:49,366 --> 02:50:53,994
The next morning,
when I came here to work,

1875
02:50:54,120 --> 02:50:58,165
the station was absolutely silent.

1876
02:51:22,816 --> 02:51:27,194
And we realised,

1877
02:51:27,320 --> 02:51:33,075
after talking with the Poles
who worked at the station here...

1878
02:51:34,786 --> 02:51:39,498
...that something utterly
incomprehensible had happened.

1879
02:51:45,630 --> 02:51:48,465
First of all, when the camp
was being built...

1880
02:51:54,639 --> 02:51:56,890
...there were orders
shouted in German...

1881
02:51:57,350 --> 02:51:59,059
...there were screams...

1882
02:52:00,270 --> 02:52:04,022
...Jews were working at the run,
there were shots,

1883
02:52:04,858 --> 02:52:07,985
and here there was that silence...

1884
02:52:13,324 --> 02:52:15,367
No work crews...

1885
02:52:18,872 --> 02:52:21,039
...a really total silence.

1886
02:52:29,257 --> 02:52:33,135
40 cars had arrived,
and then... nothing.

1887
02:52:33,261 --> 02:52:36,054
It was all very strange.

1888
02:52:36,890 --> 02:52:39,433
(Lanzmann) It was the silence
that tipped them off?

1889
02:52:39,559 --> 02:52:41,018
(Interpreter) That's right.

1890
02:52:41,144 --> 02:52:43,812
Can he describe that silence?

1891
02:52:43,938 --> 02:52:45,606
(Piwonski speaks Polish)

1892
02:52:45,732 --> 02:52:48,567
It was a silence.

1893
02:52:48,693 --> 02:52:52,779
Nothing was going on in the camp.
You heard nothing.

1894
02:52:52,906 --> 02:52:54,740
Nothing moved.

1895
02:52:55,366 --> 02:52:57,367
(Piwonski continues)

1896
02:53:01,623 --> 02:53:04,541
So then they began to wonder...

1897
02:53:08,046 --> 02:53:11,340
"Where have they put
those Jews?"

1898
02:53:16,054 --> 02:53:20,933
(Muller in German)
Cell 13, Block 11 at Auschwitz 1,

1899
02:53:21,059 --> 02:53:24,478
is where
the Special Work Detail was held.

1900
02:53:26,564 --> 02:53:30,150
The cell was underground, isolated.

1901
02:53:31,110 --> 02:53:34,530
For we were...

1902
02:53:36,074 --> 02:53:38,116
..."bearers of secrets".

1903
02:53:39,661 --> 02:53:42,037
We were reprieved dead men.

1904
02:53:44,040 --> 02:53:47,251
We weren't allowed to talk to anyone,

1905
02:53:47,377 --> 02:53:50,170
or contact any prisoner,

1906
02:53:50,713 --> 02:53:53,757
even the SS.

1907
02:53:53,883 --> 02:53:58,095
Only those in charge of the "Action."

1908
02:54:02,100 --> 02:54:04,226
There was a window.

1909
02:54:05,061 --> 02:54:08,689
We heard what happened
in the courtyard.

1910
02:54:10,400 --> 02:54:12,651
The executions,

1911
02:54:13,695 --> 02:54:16,947
the victims' cries, the screams,

1912
02:54:17,657 --> 02:54:19,866
but we couldn't see anything.

1913
02:54:25,498 --> 02:54:28,083
This went on for several days.

1914
02:54:29,460 --> 02:54:33,547
One night an SS man came

1915
02:54:34,465 --> 02:54:36,675
from the political section.

1916
02:54:38,469 --> 02:54:44,182
It was around 4:00am.

1917
02:54:48,396 --> 02:54:53,692
The whole camp was still asleep.

1918
02:54:56,237 --> 02:54:59,114
There wasn't a sound in the camp.

1919
02:55:07,624 --> 02:55:12,878
We were again taken out of our cell

1920
02:55:14,922 --> 02:55:17,799
and led to the crematorium.

1921
02:55:23,181 --> 02:55:27,017
There, for the first time,
I saw the procedure used

1922
02:55:27,143 --> 02:55:31,271
with those who came in alive.

1923
02:55:32,398 --> 02:55:34,524
We were lined up against a wall

1924
02:55:34,651 --> 02:55:38,528
and told, "No one may talk
to those people."

1925
02:55:42,492 --> 02:55:47,579
Suddenly, the wooden door
to the crematorium courtyard opened,

1926
02:55:47,705 --> 02:55:53,460
and 250 to 300 people filed in,

1927
02:55:53,586 --> 02:55:56,880
old people, and women.

1928
02:55:59,217 --> 02:56:03,011
They carried bundles,
wore the Star of David.

1929
02:56:05,014 --> 02:56:07,683
Even from a distance, I could tell

1930
02:56:07,809 --> 02:56:11,353
that they were Polish Jews,

1931
02:56:12,939 --> 02:56:16,608
probably from Upper Silesia,

1932
02:56:16,734 --> 02:56:21,738
from the Sosnowiec ghetto,
some 20 miles from Auschwitz.

1933
02:56:24,158 --> 02:56:25,534
FILIP MULLER

1934
02:56:25,660 --> 02:56:30,664
I caught some of the things
they said.

1935
02:56:31,791 --> 02:56:33,583
I heard "fachowitz,"

1936
02:56:33,710 --> 02:56:36,420
meaning "skilled worker."

1937
02:56:36,546 --> 02:56:39,464
And "Malach-ha-Mavis,"

1938
02:56:40,216 --> 02:56:43,260
which means
"the angel of death" in Yiddish.

1939
02:56:46,055 --> 02:56:49,349
Also, "harginnen":
"They're going to kill us."

1940
02:56:52,812 --> 02:56:56,857
From what I could hear,

1941
02:56:56,983 --> 02:57:01,361
I clearly understood
the struggle going on inside them.

1942
02:57:01,487 --> 02:57:03,697
Sometimes they spoke of work

1943
02:57:03,823 --> 02:57:08,368
probably hoping
that they'd be put to work.

1944
02:57:09,537 --> 02:57:13,874
Or they spoke of "Malach-ha-Mavis,"
the angel of death.

1945
02:57:15,460 --> 02:57:19,713
The conflicting words echoed
the conflict in their feelings.

1946
02:57:20,465 --> 02:57:24,009
Then a sudden silence

1947
02:57:24,552 --> 02:57:28,805
fell over those gathered
in the crematorium courtyard.

1948
02:57:31,434 --> 02:57:34,561
All eyes converged

1949
02:57:35,313 --> 02:57:38,857
on the flat roof of the crematorium.

1950
02:57:42,570 --> 02:57:44,613
Who was standing there?

1951
02:57:44,739 --> 02:57:47,073
Aumeyer of the SS,

1952
02:57:47,992 --> 02:57:50,827
Grabner,
the head of the political section,

1953
02:57:51,412 --> 02:57:54,122
and Hossler, the SS officer.

1954
02:57:55,249 --> 02:57:58,627
Aumeyer addressed the crowd,

1955
02:58:00,588 --> 02:58:04,174
"You're here to work,

1956
02:58:04,300 --> 02:58:09,221
"for our soldiers fighting at the front.

1957
02:58:11,474 --> 02:58:14,434
"Those who can work
will be all right."

1958
02:58:15,645 --> 02:58:23,193
It was obvious that
hope flared in those people.

1959
02:58:23,319 --> 02:58:27,322
You could feel it clearly.

1960
02:58:28,574 --> 02:58:32,202
The executioners had got
past the first obstacle.

1961
02:58:33,204 --> 02:58:36,665
They saw it was succeeding.

1962
02:58:38,292 --> 02:58:40,627
Then Grabner spoke up,

1963
02:58:41,963 --> 02:58:46,633
"We need masons, electricians,

1964
02:58:47,301 --> 02:58:49,511
"all the trades."

1965
02:58:50,471 --> 02:58:54,808
Next, Hossler took over.

1966
02:58:55,977 --> 02:59:00,605
He pointed to a short man in the crowd.

1967
02:59:00,731 --> 02:59:02,774
I can still see him.

1968
02:59:02,900 --> 02:59:04,693
"What's your trade?"

1969
02:59:04,819 --> 02:59:09,656
The man said,
"Mr. Officer, I'm a tailor."

1970
02:59:10,449 --> 02:59:14,035
"A tailor? What kind of tailor?"

1971
02:59:15,246 --> 02:59:19,499
"A men's...
No, for both men and women."

1972
02:59:19,625 --> 02:59:24,880
"Wonderful! We need people
like you in our workshops."

1973
02:59:27,049 --> 02:59:30,051
Then he questioned a woman,

1974
02:59:30,803 --> 02:59:33,471
"What's your trade?"

1975
02:59:34,098 --> 02:59:36,600
"Nurse," she replied.

1976
02:59:36,726 --> 02:59:43,440
"Splendid! We need nurses
in our hospitals for our soldiers.

1977
02:59:43,566 --> 02:59:47,944
"We need all of you!
But first, undress.

1978
02:59:48,821 --> 02:59:51,823
"You must be disinfected.

1979
02:59:51,949 --> 02:59:55,201
"We want you healthy."

1980
02:59:57,705 --> 03:00:01,082
I could see the people were calmer,

1981
03:00:01,709 --> 03:00:05,962
reassured by what they'd heard,

1982
03:00:06,672 --> 03:00:09,799
and they began to undress.

1983
03:00:11,677 --> 03:00:14,137
Even if they still had their doubts,

1984
03:00:14,972 --> 03:00:17,974
if you want to live, you must hope.

1985
03:00:23,606 --> 03:00:27,192
Their clothing remained
in the courtyard,

1986
03:00:28,027 --> 03:00:30,695
scattered everywhere.

1987
03:00:31,906 --> 03:00:34,532
Aumeyer was beaming,

1988
03:00:34,659 --> 03:00:38,578
very proud of how he'd handled things.

1989
03:00:38,704 --> 03:00:43,208
He turned to some of the SS men
and told them,

1990
03:00:43,334 --> 03:00:46,503
"You see? That's the way to do it!"

1991
03:00:47,964 --> 03:00:50,215
By this device,

1992
03:00:50,341 --> 03:00:55,762
a great leap forward had been made:

1993
03:00:57,014 --> 03:01:00,392
Now the clothing could be used.

1994
03:01:04,313 --> 03:01:05,939
RAUL HILBERG
HISTORIAN

1995
03:01:06,065 --> 03:01:09,442
In all of my work, I have never begun
by asking the big questions,

1996
03:01:09,568 --> 03:01:13,029
because I was always afraid that
I would come up with small answers,

1997
03:01:13,155 --> 03:01:17,867
and I have preferred, therefore,
to address these things,

1998
03:01:17,994 --> 03:01:20,662
which are minutiae or detail,

1999
03:01:20,788 --> 03:01:24,666
in order that I might then
be able to put together

2000
03:01:24,792 --> 03:01:26,501
in a gestalt,

2001
03:01:26,627 --> 03:01:28,378
a picture, which...

2002
03:01:29,630 --> 03:01:32,257
...if not an explanation,
is at least a description,

2003
03:01:32,383 --> 03:01:36,803
a more full description,
of what transpired.

2004
03:01:36,929 --> 03:01:42,726
And, in that sense, I look also upon
the bureaucratic destruction process,

2005
03:01:42,852 --> 03:01:44,686
for this is what it was,

2006
03:01:44,812 --> 03:01:49,357
as a series of minute steps
taken in logical order

2007
03:01:49,483 --> 03:01:52,694
and relying above all,
as much as possible,

2008
03:01:52,820 --> 03:01:56,281
on experience, past experience.

2009
03:01:56,407 --> 03:02:00,577
This goes not only, incidentally,
for the administrative steps taken,

2010
03:02:00,703 --> 03:02:03,371
but also the psychological arguments,

2011
03:02:03,497 --> 03:02:05,832
even the propaganda.

2012
03:02:05,958 --> 03:02:10,378
Amazingly little was newly invented

2013
03:02:10,504 --> 03:02:15,300
until, of course, the moment came
when one had to go beyond

2014
03:02:15,426 --> 03:02:17,802
that which had already been
established by precedent,

2015
03:02:17,928 --> 03:02:19,763
and one had to gas these people,

2016
03:02:19,889 --> 03:02:23,308
or, in some sense,
annihilate them on a large scale.

2017
03:02:23,434 --> 03:02:27,062
Then, these bureaucrats
became inventors.

2018
03:02:27,897 --> 03:02:30,774
But like all inventors of institutions,

2019
03:02:30,900 --> 03:02:33,777
they did not copyright
or patent their achievements,

2020
03:02:33,903 --> 03:02:36,821
and they preferred obscurity.

2021
03:02:38,240 --> 03:02:41,493
(Lanzmann) What did they get
from the past, the Nazis?

2022
03:02:44,080 --> 03:02:48,750
They got the actual content
of measures which they took.

2023
03:02:48,876 --> 03:02:53,129
For example,
the barring of Jews from office,

2024
03:02:54,340 --> 03:02:57,967
the prohibition of intermarriages,

2025
03:02:58,469 --> 03:03:04,474
the employment in Jewish homes
of female persons under the age of45,

2026
03:03:06,268 --> 03:03:11,147
the various marking decrees,
especially the Jewish star,

2027
03:03:12,566 --> 03:03:14,651
the compulsory ghetto,

2028
03:03:16,529 --> 03:03:20,323
the voidance of any will
executed by a Jew

2029
03:03:20,449 --> 03:03:23,076
that might work in such a way

2030
03:03:23,202 --> 03:03:28,665
as to prevent inheritance of his property
by someone who was a Christian.

2031
03:03:29,750 --> 03:03:34,379
Many such measures
had been worked out

2032
03:03:34,505 --> 03:03:38,133
over the course of more
than a thousand years

2033
03:03:39,510 --> 03:03:43,221
by authorities of the Church

2034
03:03:43,347 --> 03:03:48,685
and by secular governments
that followed in those footsteps.

2035
03:03:49,603 --> 03:03:51,563
And the experience
gathered over that time

2036
03:03:51,689 --> 03:03:54,691
became a reservoir
that could be used

2037
03:03:54,817 --> 03:03:58,027
and which indeed was used
to an amazing extent.

2038
03:03:59,989 --> 03:04:01,990
You mean that one can compare...

2039
03:04:02,116 --> 03:04:04,033
- One can actually compare...
- Each measure?

2040
03:04:04,160 --> 03:04:11,708
One can compare a rather large number
of German laws and decrees

2041
03:04:11,834 --> 03:04:14,210
with their counterparts in the past

2042
03:04:14,753 --> 03:04:17,255
and find complete parallels,

2043
03:04:17,381 --> 03:04:19,090
even in detail,

2044
03:04:20,259 --> 03:04:22,760
as if they were a memory

2045
03:04:23,512 --> 03:04:28,057
which automatically extended
to the period of 1933

2046
03:04:28,184 --> 03:04:32,896
and 1935 and 1939 and beyond.

2047
03:04:33,731 --> 03:04:36,816
In such respect,
they didn't invent anything?

2048
03:04:36,942 --> 03:04:38,693
They invented very little,

2049
03:04:38,819 --> 03:04:41,279
and they did not invent
the portrait of the Jew,

2050
03:04:41,405 --> 03:04:43,781
which also was taken over,
lock, stock and barrel,

2051
03:04:43,908 --> 03:04:47,660
from writings going back
to the 16th century.

2052
03:04:47,786 --> 03:04:49,537
So, even the propaganda,

2053
03:04:49,663 --> 03:04:52,832
the realm of the imagination
and invention,

2054
03:04:52,958 --> 03:04:55,627
even there, they were
remarkably in the footsteps

2055
03:04:55,753 --> 03:04:57,754
of those who preceded them,

2056
03:04:57,880 --> 03:05:01,716
from Martin Luther
to the 19th century.

2057
03:05:03,510 --> 03:05:05,845
And, here again,
they were not inventive.

2058
03:05:06,305 --> 03:05:09,140
They had to become inventive
with the 'final solution'.

2059
03:05:09,266 --> 03:05:11,142
That was their great invention,

2060
03:05:11,268 --> 03:05:14,562
and that is what made
this entire process different

2061
03:05:14,688 --> 03:05:18,566
from all others that
had preceded that event.

2062
03:05:19,944 --> 03:05:21,945
And, in this respect,

2063
03:05:23,405 --> 03:05:29,452
what transpired when
the final solution was... adopted,

2064
03:05:29,578 --> 03:05:31,996
or, to be more precise,

2065
03:05:32,831 --> 03:05:36,209
when the bureaucracy moved into it,

2066
03:05:38,170 --> 03:05:40,505
was a turning point in history.

2067
03:05:43,592 --> 03:05:49,973
Even here, I would suggest
a logical progression,

2068
03:05:51,183 --> 03:05:54,143
one which came to fruition

2069
03:05:55,521 --> 03:05:58,273
in what might be called closure,

2070
03:06:00,109 --> 03:06:02,485
because, from the earliest days,

2071
03:06:02,611 --> 03:06:06,489
from the fourth century,
fifth century, sixth century,

2072
03:06:07,491 --> 03:06:11,703
the missionaries of Christianity
had said, in effect, to the Jews,

2073
03:06:11,829 --> 03:06:16,082
"You may not live among us
as Jews."

2074
03:06:17,001 --> 03:06:19,544
The secular rulers who followed them,

2075
03:06:20,045 --> 03:06:24,799
from the late Middle Ages,
had then decided,

2076
03:06:24,925 --> 03:06:27,385
"You may not live among us,"

2077
03:06:28,178 --> 03:06:30,722
and the Nazis finally decreed,

2078
03:06:31,181 --> 03:06:32,890
"You may not live."

2079
03:06:35,060 --> 03:06:39,731
This means that the three steps were...
The first one was conversion.

2080
03:06:40,316 --> 03:06:43,526
- Conversion, followed by...
- The second one, ghettoisation.

2081
03:06:43,652 --> 03:06:45,069
- Expulsion.
- Or expulsion.

2082
03:06:45,195 --> 03:06:47,030
Expulsion.

2083
03:06:47,156 --> 03:06:50,033
And the third was
the territorial solution,

2084
03:06:51,201 --> 03:06:54,162
which was, of course,
the solution carried out

2085
03:06:54,288 --> 03:06:56,289
within the territories
under German command,

2086
03:06:56,415 --> 03:06:58,583
excluding emigration:

2087
03:06:58,709 --> 03:07:00,460
death...

2088
03:07:01,670 --> 03:07:03,463
The final solution.

2089
03:07:04,048 --> 03:07:07,675
And the "final solution,"
you see, is really final,

2090
03:07:08,385 --> 03:07:14,474
because people who are converted
can yet be, in secret, Jews,

2091
03:07:14,600 --> 03:07:18,186
people who are expelled
can yet return,

2092
03:07:18,854 --> 03:07:23,358
but people who are dead
will not reappear.

2093
03:07:27,029 --> 03:07:33,701
In such a respect, in the last stage,
they were really pioneers and inventors?

2094
03:07:34,745 --> 03:07:38,414
This was something unprecedented,
and this was something new.

2095
03:07:46,215 --> 03:07:48,508
How can one figure...

2096
03:07:48,634 --> 03:07:53,805
give some ideas about
the complete newness of this,

2097
03:07:53,931 --> 03:07:57,350
because I think that it was new
for themselves too?

2098
03:07:58,227 --> 03:07:59,644
Yes, it was new,

2099
03:07:59,770 --> 03:08:07,235
and this... I think, for this reason
that one cannot find a specific document,

2100
03:08:07,361 --> 03:08:11,155
a specific plan, outline or blueprint

2101
03:08:11,782 --> 03:08:15,159
which states,
"Now, the Jews will be killed."

2102
03:08:15,994 --> 03:08:19,539
Everything is left to inference
from general words.

2103
03:08:19,665 --> 03:08:22,208
- Inference from...?
- General wording.

2104
03:08:22,334 --> 03:08:25,711
The very wording "final solution"
or "total solution",

2105
03:08:25,838 --> 03:08:28,047
or "territorial solution",

2106
03:08:28,674 --> 03:08:32,677
leaves something to the bureaucrat
that he must infer.

2107
03:08:32,803 --> 03:08:34,762
He cannot read that document.

2108
03:08:34,888 --> 03:08:38,599
One cannot even read
Goring's famous letter to Heydrich,

2109
03:08:38,725 --> 03:08:40,768
at the end of July 1941,

2110
03:08:40,894 --> 03:08:44,689
charging him in two paragraphs
to proceed with the final solution.

2111
03:08:44,815 --> 03:08:48,901
And taking that document aside,
everything is clarified?

2112
03:08:49,027 --> 03:08:50,570
Far from it.

2113
03:08:50,696 --> 03:08:52,029
- Far from it?
- Far from it.

2114
03:08:52,156 --> 03:08:55,074
It was an authorisation to invent.

2115
03:08:55,200 --> 03:08:57,952
It was an authorisation
to begin something

2116
03:08:58,078 --> 03:09:02,331
that was not as yet
capable of being put into words.

2117
03:09:10,007 --> 03:09:12,592
I think it...
I think of it that way.

2118
03:09:13,552 --> 03:09:16,804
It was a case for every agency,
as a matter off act.

2119
03:09:16,930 --> 03:09:18,723
Absolutely, for every agency.

2120
03:09:18,849 --> 03:09:23,269
In every aspect of this operation,
invention was necessary.

2121
03:09:24,480 --> 03:09:26,606
Certainly at this point,

2122
03:09:26,732 --> 03:09:29,901
because every problem
was unprecedented:

2123
03:09:30,944 --> 03:09:34,322
not just how to kill the Jews, but what
to do with their property thereafter,

2124
03:09:34,448 --> 03:09:35,865
and, not only that,

2125
03:09:35,991 --> 03:09:37,533
but how to deal with the problem

2126
03:09:37,659 --> 03:09:40,870
of not letting the world know
what had happened.

2127
03:09:40,996 --> 03:09:44,582
All of these multitudes
of problems were new.

2128
03:11:01,743 --> 03:11:03,578
(Children shouting)

2129
03:11:22,848 --> 03:11:24,765
(Van door closes)

2130
03:11:43,619 --> 03:11:46,746
FRANZ SCHALLING

2131
03:11:49,875 --> 03:11:55,046
(Lanzmann in German)
First, explain to me...

2132
03:11:55,505 --> 03:11:59,925
how you came to Kulmhof,
to Chelmno.

2133
03:12:00,719 --> 03:12:03,012
You were at Lodz, right?

2134
03:12:03,138 --> 03:12:04,930
- (Schalling) In Lodz, yes.
- Litzmannstadt?

2135
03:12:05,057 --> 03:12:07,266
(Schalling)
In Litzmannstadt, yes.

2136
03:12:07,392 --> 03:12:11,896
We were on permanent guard duty.

2137
03:12:12,731 --> 03:12:15,358
Protecting military objectives: mills,

2138
03:12:15,859 --> 03:12:19,487
the roads,
when Hitler went to East Prussia.

2139
03:12:20,197 --> 03:12:23,282
It was dreary, and we were told,

2140
03:12:23,408 --> 03:12:28,871
"We're looking for men who want
to break out of this routine."

2141
03:12:28,997 --> 03:12:31,165
So we volunteered.

2142
03:12:32,793 --> 03:12:35,503
We were issued winter uniforms,

2143
03:12:35,962 --> 03:12:40,383
overcoats, fur hats, fur-lined boots,

2144
03:12:41,259 --> 03:12:45,805
and 2 or 3 days later,
we were told, "We're off!"

2145
03:12:46,807 --> 03:12:50,351
We were put aboard 2 or 3 trucks...
I don't know...

2146
03:12:50,477 --> 03:12:54,730
They had benches,

2147
03:12:55,399 --> 03:12:57,358
and we rode and rode.

2148
03:12:57,484 --> 03:12:59,985
Finally we arrived.

2149
03:13:01,822 --> 03:13:05,241
The place was crawling
with SS men and police.

2150
03:13:05,367 --> 03:13:09,578
Our first question was,
"What goes on here?"

2151
03:13:09,705 --> 03:13:12,623
They said, "You'll find out!"

2152
03:13:12,749 --> 03:13:15,710
- (Lanzmann) You'll find out?
- You'll find out.

2153
03:13:15,836 --> 03:13:17,920
(Lanzmann) Yes.

2154
03:13:18,046 --> 03:13:21,340
- You weren't in the SS, you were...
- Police.

2155
03:13:21,466 --> 03:13:25,136
- Which police?
- Security guards.

2156
03:13:25,929 --> 03:13:30,141
We were ordered to report
to the Deutsche Haus,

2157
03:13:30,267 --> 03:13:34,270
the only big stone building
in the village.

2158
03:13:34,396 --> 03:13:35,396
Yes.

2159
03:13:35,522 --> 03:13:37,481
We were taken into it.

2160
03:13:38,525 --> 03:13:40,818
An SS man immediately told us,

2161
03:13:40,944 --> 03:13:44,113
"This is a top secret mission."

2162
03:13:44,239 --> 03:13:46,574
- Secret?
- "A top secret mission."

2163
03:13:46,700 --> 03:13:48,492
- Yes.
- "Sign this!"

2164
03:13:48,618 --> 03:13:50,578
We each had to sign.

2165
03:13:50,704 --> 03:13:54,498
There was a form ready for each of us.

2166
03:13:57,461 --> 03:13:59,712
What did it say?

2167
03:13:59,838 --> 03:14:03,007
It was a pledge of secrecy.

2168
03:14:03,133 --> 03:14:05,843
We never even got to read it through.

2169
03:14:05,969 --> 03:14:08,220
You had to take an oath?

2170
03:14:08,346 --> 03:14:11,348
- No, just sign...
- Yes.

2171
03:14:11,475 --> 03:14:15,019
Promising to shut up
about whatever we'd see.

2172
03:14:15,145 --> 03:14:16,729
- Shut up?
- Not say a word.

2173
03:14:16,855 --> 03:14:18,314
Yes.

2174
03:14:18,440 --> 03:14:22,568
After we'd signed, we were told,

2175
03:14:23,153 --> 03:14:24,904
"Final solution to the Jewish question."

2176
03:14:25,030 --> 03:14:28,991
We didn't understand what that meant.

2177
03:14:29,117 --> 03:14:30,910
So someone said...?

2178
03:14:31,036 --> 03:14:34,121
He told us what was going
to happen there.

2179
03:14:34,247 --> 03:14:38,042
Someone said, "The final solution
to the Jewish question."

2180
03:14:38,168 --> 03:14:42,463
You'd be assigned
to the "final solution"?

2181
03:14:42,589 --> 03:14:45,341
Yes, but what did that mean?

2182
03:14:45,467 --> 03:14:47,635
We'd never heard that before.

2183
03:14:47,761 --> 03:14:49,762
So it was explained to us.

2184
03:14:49,888 --> 03:14:52,056
Just when was this?

2185
03:14:52,182 --> 03:14:54,725
Let's see... when was it...?

2186
03:14:56,061 --> 03:14:59,063
In the winter of 1941-42.

2187
03:15:05,445 --> 03:15:08,572
Then we were assigned to our stations.

2188
03:15:08,698 --> 03:15:12,618
Our guard post was
at the side of the road.

2189
03:15:12,744 --> 03:15:15,496
A sentry box in front of the castle.

2190
03:15:15,956 --> 03:15:19,625
(Lanzmann)
So you were in the "castle detail"?

2191
03:15:22,462 --> 03:15:24,338
(Schalling) That's right.

2192
03:15:25,507 --> 03:15:29,468
(Lanzmann) Can you describe
what you saw?

2193
03:15:30,929 --> 03:15:33,722
We could see.
We were at the gatehouse.

2194
03:15:33,849 --> 03:15:34,932
Yes?

2195
03:15:35,058 --> 03:15:39,645
When the Jews arrived,
the way they looked,

2196
03:15:39,771 --> 03:15:44,233
half-frozen, starved, dirty,
already half-dead.

2197
03:15:44,359 --> 03:15:47,194
Old people, children.

2198
03:15:48,321 --> 03:15:53,742
Think of it! The long trip here
standing in a truck, packed in!

2199
03:15:55,370 --> 03:15:58,330
Who knows if they knew
what was in store?

2200
03:15:59,082 --> 03:16:01,458
They didn't trust anyone,
that's for sure.

2201
03:16:01,585 --> 03:16:04,795
After months in the ghetto,
you can imagine!

2202
03:16:06,214 --> 03:16:07,631
Yes?

2203
03:16:07,757 --> 03:16:10,593
I heard an SS man shout at them,

2204
03:16:10,719 --> 03:16:13,262
"You're going to be deloused

2205
03:16:14,055 --> 03:16:16,390
"and have a bath.

2206
03:16:16,892 --> 03:16:18,893
"You're going to work here."

2207
03:16:19,394 --> 03:16:22,646
The Jews consented.

2208
03:16:22,772 --> 03:16:26,066
They said,
"Yes, that's what we want to do."

2209
03:16:27,736 --> 03:16:30,154
(Lanzmann) Was the castle big?

2210
03:16:31,615 --> 03:16:34,533
Pretty big, with huge front steps.

2211
03:16:34,659 --> 03:16:39,538
The SS man stood
at the top of the steps.

2212
03:16:40,957 --> 03:16:43,667
(Lanzmann) Then what happened?

2213
03:16:43,793 --> 03:16:48,547
They were hustled into 2 or 3
big rooms on the first floor.

2214
03:16:49,174 --> 03:16:52,509
They had to undress,
give up everything:

2215
03:16:52,636 --> 03:16:54,720
rings, gold, everything.

2216
03:16:58,141 --> 03:17:01,518
(Lanzmann) How long
did the Jews stay there?

2217
03:17:01,978 --> 03:17:04,730
- Long enough to undress.
- Yes.

2218
03:17:04,856 --> 03:17:07,232
Then, stark naked,

2219
03:17:07,359 --> 03:17:11,570
they had to run down more steps

2220
03:17:12,656 --> 03:17:14,740
to an underground corridor

2221
03:17:15,825 --> 03:17:19,536
that led back up to the ramp,
where the gas van awaited them.

2222
03:17:21,373 --> 03:17:25,793
(Lanzmann) Did the Jews
enter the van willingly?

2223
03:17:27,420 --> 03:17:29,797
No, they were beaten.

2224
03:17:30,298 --> 03:17:34,301
Blows fell everywhere,
and the Jews understood.

2225
03:17:34,427 --> 03:17:36,178
They screamed.

2226
03:17:36,304 --> 03:17:38,180
It was frightful!

2227
03:17:38,932 --> 03:17:40,683
Frightful!

2228
03:17:42,769 --> 03:17:45,688
I know, because
we went down to the cellar

2229
03:17:45,814 --> 03:17:48,023
when they were all in the van.

2230
03:17:48,149 --> 03:17:53,988
We opened the cells of the work detail,

2231
03:17:54,114 --> 03:17:56,407
the Jewish workers

2232
03:17:56,533 --> 03:18:01,161
who collected the things thrown out
of the 1st-floor window into there.

2233
03:18:03,331 --> 03:18:05,749
(Lanzmann)
Describe the gas vans.

2234
03:18:06,918 --> 03:18:09,336
(Schalling) Like moving vans.

2235
03:18:09,462 --> 03:18:11,338
Very big?

2236
03:18:11,464 --> 03:18:14,049
They stretched, say,

2237
03:18:14,175 --> 03:18:16,719
from here to the window.

2238
03:18:16,845 --> 03:18:18,887
Just big trucks,

2239
03:18:19,014 --> 03:18:22,349
like moving vans, with 2 rear doors.

2240
03:18:25,186 --> 03:18:27,688
What system was used?

2241
03:18:27,814 --> 03:18:32,067
How did they kill them?

2242
03:18:32,193 --> 03:18:35,362
- With exhaust fumes.
- Exhaust fumes?

2243
03:18:35,864 --> 03:18:40,993
It went like this:
a Pole yelled, "Gas!"

2244
03:18:41,119 --> 03:18:46,373
then the driver got under the van
to hook up the pipe

2245
03:18:47,417 --> 03:18:52,463
that fed the gas into the van.

2246
03:18:52,589 --> 03:18:55,674
- Yes, but how?
- From the motor.

2247
03:18:55,800 --> 03:18:58,135
Yes, but through what?

2248
03:18:58,261 --> 03:19:00,512
A pipe... a tube.

2249
03:19:00,638 --> 03:19:03,432
He fiddled around under the truck.

2250
03:19:03,558 --> 03:19:05,768
I'm not sure how.

2251
03:19:06,853 --> 03:19:09,813
It was just exhaust gas?

2252
03:19:10,815 --> 03:19:12,524
That's all.

2253
03:19:14,235 --> 03:19:15,486
(Lanzmann) Yes.

2254
03:19:16,279 --> 03:19:18,614
Who were the drivers?

2255
03:19:20,283 --> 03:19:21,992
SS men.

2256
03:19:22,118 --> 03:19:25,245
All those men were SS.

2257
03:19:25,371 --> 03:19:28,540
Were there many of these drivers?

2258
03:19:28,666 --> 03:19:30,167
I don't know.

2259
03:19:30,293 --> 03:19:32,920
Were there 2, 3, 5, 10?

2260
03:19:33,379 --> 03:19:36,799
Not that many.
2 or 3, that's all.

2261
03:19:36,925 --> 03:19:39,343
I think there were 2 vans,

2262
03:19:39,969 --> 03:19:43,222
one big, one smaller.

2263
03:19:43,348 --> 03:19:44,848
Yes?

2264
03:19:45,350 --> 03:19:50,020
Did the driver sit
in the cabin of the van?

2265
03:19:50,522 --> 03:19:52,439
- Mrs. Uwe?
- (Woman) No.

2266
03:19:53,525 --> 03:19:58,028
He climbed into the cabin
after the doors were closed

2267
03:19:58,696 --> 03:20:00,989
and started the motor.

2268
03:20:01,616 --> 03:20:05,744
Did he race the motor?

2269
03:20:07,205 --> 03:20:09,915
I don't know.

2270
03:20:10,792 --> 03:20:15,462
Could you hear
the sound of the motor?

2271
03:20:16,422 --> 03:20:20,467
Yes, from the gate
we could hear it turn over.

2272
03:20:20,593 --> 03:20:24,596
Was it a loud noise?

2273
03:20:24,722 --> 03:20:28,725
The noise of a truck engine.

2274
03:20:28,852 --> 03:20:30,352
Yes.

2275
03:20:30,478 --> 03:20:36,316
The van was stationary
while the motor ran?

2276
03:20:37,485 --> 03:20:40,863
- That's right.
- Yes.

2277
03:20:40,989 --> 03:20:43,782
Then it started moving.

2278
03:20:44,242 --> 03:20:48,412
We opened the gate,
and it headed for the woods.

2279
03:20:48,955 --> 03:20:51,498
Were the people already dead?

2280
03:20:51,624 --> 03:20:53,584
I don't know.

2281
03:20:53,710 --> 03:20:57,546
- It was quiet. No more screams.
- No screams.

2282
03:20:57,672 --> 03:21:00,841
You couldn't hear anything
as they drove by.

2283
03:21:08,850 --> 03:21:11,101
(Podchlebnik speaks Yiddish)

2284
03:21:14,147 --> 03:21:16,899
(Interpreter ♪2 in French)
He recalls it was 1941,

2285
03:21:17,025 --> 03:21:19,401
two days before the new year.

2286
03:21:19,527 --> 03:21:22,029
(Podchlebnik continues)

2287
03:21:22,530 --> 03:21:25,115
They were routed out at night...

2288
03:21:28,369 --> 03:21:31,747
...and in the morning
they reached Chelmno.

2289
03:21:37,086 --> 03:21:40,255
There was a castle there.

2290
03:21:48,890 --> 03:21:51,099
When he entered
the castle courtyard...

2291
03:21:53,228 --> 03:21:55,812
...he knew something awful
was going on.

2292
03:21:57,357 --> 03:21:59,775
He already understood.

2293
03:21:59,901 --> 03:22:01,944
THE SITE OF THE CASTLE

2294
03:22:03,196 --> 03:22:05,030
(Podchlebnik continues)

2295
03:22:06,282 --> 03:22:09,326
They saw clothes and shoes...

2296
03:22:11,454 --> 03:22:13,455
...scattered in the courtyard.

2297
03:22:18,503 --> 03:22:21,630
Yet they were alone there.

2298
03:22:21,756 --> 03:22:24,258
He knew his parents
had been through there...

2299
03:22:25,885 --> 03:22:28,929
...and there wasn't a Jew left.

2300
03:22:32,308 --> 03:22:34,268
(Podchlebnik continues)

2301
03:22:34,394 --> 03:22:37,521
They were taken down into a cellar.

2302
03:22:41,859 --> 03:22:45,946
On a wall was written,
"No one leaves here alive."

2303
03:22:47,323 --> 03:22:49,199
Graffiti in Yiddish.

2304
03:22:50,785 --> 03:22:52,661
There were lots of names.

2305
03:22:54,914 --> 03:22:58,625
He thinks it was the Jews
from villages around Chelmno

2306
03:22:58,751 --> 03:23:02,421
who had come before him,
who had written their names.

2307
03:23:10,847 --> 03:23:13,849
- (Podchlebnik continues)
- A few days after New Year's...

2308
03:23:16,853 --> 03:23:19,896
...they heard people arrive
in a truck one morning.

2309
03:23:21,691 --> 03:23:23,859
The people were taken
out of the truck...

2310
03:23:26,362 --> 03:23:31,408
...and up to the first floor
of the castle.

2311
03:23:31,534 --> 03:23:35,746
The Germans lied,
saying they were to be deloused.

2312
03:23:41,794 --> 03:23:44,921
They were chased
down the other side...

2313
03:23:46,924 --> 03:23:48,925
...where a van was waiting.

2314
03:23:50,053 --> 03:23:52,346
(Podchlebnik continues)

2315
03:23:55,141 --> 03:24:00,479
The Germans pushed
and beat them with their weapons

2316
03:24:00,605 --> 03:24:03,315
to hustle them into the trucks faster.

2317
03:24:14,952 --> 03:24:16,787
(Podchlebnik continues)

2318
03:24:21,125 --> 03:24:25,087
He heard people praying,
"Shma Israel"...

2319
03:24:28,091 --> 03:24:31,218
...and he heard
the van's rear doors being shut.

2320
03:24:36,015 --> 03:24:38,266
Their screams were heard,

2321
03:24:38,393 --> 03:24:41,353
becoming fainter and fainter...

2322
03:24:44,273 --> 03:24:48,360
...and when there was total silence,

2323
03:24:48,486 --> 03:24:50,570
the van left.

2324
03:24:56,619 --> 03:24:58,620
(Podchlebnik continues)

2325
03:25:04,210 --> 03:25:09,214
He and the 4 others
were brought out of the cellar.

2326
03:25:09,340 --> 03:25:10,882
They went upstairs...

2327
03:25:20,601 --> 03:25:24,521
...and gathered up
the clothes remaining

2328
03:25:24,647 --> 03:25:27,149
outside the supposed baths.

2329
03:25:36,200 --> 03:25:38,952
(Lanzmann) Did he understand then
how they'd died?

2330
03:25:39,078 --> 03:25:41,997
(Interpreter ♪2 in Yiddish)

2331
03:25:42,123 --> 03:25:44,749
MICHAEL PODCHLEBNIK

2332
03:25:44,876 --> 03:25:50,630
SURVIVOR OF 1ST PERIOD
OF EXTERMINATION AT CHELMNO

2333
03:25:50,756 --> 03:25:52,757
THE CASTLE PERIOD

2334
03:25:56,345 --> 03:26:01,224
(Interpreter) Yes, first because
there had been rumours of it.

2335
03:26:01,350 --> 03:26:05,145
And when he went out,
he saw the sealed vans,

2336
03:26:05,271 --> 03:26:06,938
so he knew.

2337
03:26:07,064 --> 03:26:12,903
(Lanzmann) He understood that
people were gassed in the vans?

2338
03:26:13,029 --> 03:26:15,030
(Interpreter ♪2 in Yiddish)

2339
03:26:26,918 --> 03:26:29,836
Yes, because he'd heard the screams

2340
03:26:29,962 --> 03:26:32,964
and heard how they weakened,

2341
03:26:33,966 --> 03:26:38,553
and later the vans
were taken into the woods.

2342
03:26:38,679 --> 03:26:40,805
(Lanzmann)
What were the vans like?

2343
03:26:40,932 --> 03:26:42,766
(Interpreter ♪2 in Yiddish)

2344
03:27:08,918 --> 03:27:13,922
Like the ones
that deliver cigarettes here.

2345
03:27:14,423 --> 03:27:18,009
They were enclosed,
with double-leaf rear doors.

2346
03:27:18,135 --> 03:27:20,136
(Lanzmann) What colour?

2347
03:27:25,851 --> 03:27:29,896
The colour the Germans used,
green, ordinary.

2348
03:27:33,067 --> 03:27:34,776
MARTHA MICHELSOHN

2349
03:27:34,902 --> 03:27:40,574
(Lanzmann) How many German families
were there in Kulmhof, Chelmno?

2350
03:27:40,700 --> 03:27:43,952
(Speaks German)
Ten or eleven, I'd say.

2351
03:27:46,038 --> 03:27:50,500
Germans from Volhynia
and two families from the Reich,

2352
03:27:50,626 --> 03:27:53,128
the Bauers and us.

2353
03:27:54,005 --> 03:27:56,965
- And you?
- Us, the Michelsohns.

2354
03:27:57,091 --> 03:28:01,303
How did you wind up in Kulmhof?

2355
03:28:04,599 --> 03:28:06,349
I was born in Laage,

2356
03:28:06,475 --> 03:28:10,520
and I was sent to Kulmhof.

2357
03:28:10,646 --> 03:28:16,359
They were looking for volunteer settlers,

2358
03:28:16,485 --> 03:28:18,236
and I signed up.

2359
03:28:18,362 --> 03:28:20,655
That's how I got there.

2360
03:28:20,781 --> 03:28:23,533
First in Warthbrucken, Kolo,

2361
03:28:23,659 --> 03:28:27,787
then Chelmno... Kulmhof.

2362
03:28:27,913 --> 03:28:30,081
Directly from Laage?

2363
03:28:30,207 --> 03:28:36,755
- No, I left from Munster.
- Yes?

2364
03:28:36,881 --> 03:28:40,508
- Did you opt to go to Kulmhof?
- Yes.

2365
03:28:40,635 --> 03:28:43,595
No, I asked for Wartheland.

2366
03:28:43,721 --> 03:28:44,929
Why?

2367
03:28:45,056 --> 03:28:46,514
(Murmurs In German)

2368
03:28:48,100 --> 03:28:50,393
A pioneering spirit!

2369
03:28:51,812 --> 03:28:55,774
- You were young?
- Oh, yes, I was young.

2370
03:28:55,900 --> 03:28:59,402
- You wanted to be useful?
- Yes.

2371
03:29:00,696 --> 03:29:06,284
What was your first impression
of Wartheland?

2372
03:29:06,952 --> 03:29:10,288
It was primitive. Super-primitive.

2373
03:29:10,414 --> 03:29:11,998
Meaning...?

2374
03:29:12,124 --> 03:29:14,542
- Even worse...
- Even worse?

2375
03:29:14,669 --> 03:29:16,544
Worse than primitive.

2376
03:29:16,671 --> 03:29:19,756
Difficult to understand, right?

2377
03:29:19,882 --> 03:29:21,257
Yes.

2378
03:29:22,510 --> 03:29:23,677
But why...?

2379
03:29:23,803 --> 03:29:29,140
The sanitary facilities were disastrous.

2380
03:29:29,266 --> 03:29:33,561
The only toilet was
in Warthbrucken, in the town.

2381
03:29:33,688 --> 03:29:35,313
You had to go there.

2382
03:29:35,439 --> 03:29:39,901
The rest was a disaster.

2383
03:29:40,528 --> 03:29:45,532
- Why a disaster?
- There were no toilets at all!

2384
03:29:47,368 --> 03:29:48,576
Yes?

2385
03:29:49,370 --> 03:29:52,372
There were privies.

2386
03:29:53,207 --> 03:29:59,254
I can't tell you
how primitive it was.

2387
03:30:01,173 --> 03:30:02,257
Astonishing!

2388
03:30:02,383 --> 03:30:07,262
Why did you choose
such a primitive place?

2389
03:30:07,388 --> 03:30:10,932
I was young, you know.

2390
03:30:11,058 --> 03:30:13,852
You can't imagine such places exist.

2391
03:30:13,978 --> 03:30:16,980
You don't believe it.
But that's how it was.

2392
03:30:21,902 --> 03:30:24,070
(Michelsohn)
This was the whole village.

2393
03:30:24,905 --> 03:30:27,282
A very small village,

2394
03:30:29,744 --> 03:30:31,536
straggling along the road.

2395
03:30:31,662 --> 03:30:34,956
Just a few houses.

2396
03:30:36,500 --> 03:30:40,503
There was the church, the castle,

2397
03:30:40,629 --> 03:30:43,173
a store, too,

2398
03:30:43,299 --> 03:30:46,634
the administrative building
and the school.

2399
03:30:47,845 --> 03:30:50,555
The castle was next to the church,

2400
03:30:50,681 --> 03:30:53,516
with a high board fence around both.

2401
03:30:53,642 --> 03:30:55,477
(Lanzmann) Yes.

2402
03:30:58,814 --> 03:31:02,817
How far was your house
from the church?

2403
03:31:03,527 --> 03:31:07,322
(Michelsohn)
It was just opposite... 150 feet.

2404
03:31:08,324 --> 03:31:11,951
MRS. MICHELSOHN WAS
THE NAZI TEACHER'S WIFE

2405
03:31:14,246 --> 03:31:16,581
(Lanzmann) Did you see the gas vans?

2406
03:31:16,707 --> 03:31:18,208
No...

2407
03:31:18,334 --> 03:31:21,669
Yes, from the outside.
They shuttled back and forth.

2408
03:31:21,796 --> 03:31:26,090
I never looked inside.
I didn't see Jews in them.

2409
03:31:27,760 --> 03:31:29,844
I only saw things from outside,

2410
03:31:29,970 --> 03:31:33,431
the Jews' arrival, their disposition,

2411
03:31:33,974 --> 03:31:37,101
how they were loaded aboard.

2412
03:31:40,606 --> 03:31:42,524
Since World War I,

2413
03:31:42,650 --> 03:31:46,361
the castle had been in ruins.

2414
03:31:47,738 --> 03:31:50,949
Only part of it could still be used.

2415
03:31:51,951 --> 03:31:57,038
That's where the Jews were taken.

2416
03:32:03,170 --> 03:32:07,173
This ruined castle was used...

2417
03:32:07,299 --> 03:32:11,261
For housing and delousing
the Poles, and so on.

2418
03:32:11,387 --> 03:32:13,847
- The Jews?
- Yes, the Jews.

2419
03:32:13,973 --> 03:32:19,435
Why do you call them "Poles"
and not "Jews"?

2420
03:32:19,562 --> 03:32:22,897
- Sometimes, I get them mixed up.
- Yes.

2421
03:32:23,023 --> 03:32:25,483
There's a difference
between Poles and Jews?

2422
03:32:25,609 --> 03:32:27,902
Oh, yes! Oh, yes!

2423
03:32:28,028 --> 03:32:30,196
What's the difference?

2424
03:32:31,574 --> 03:32:32,949
(Laughs)

2425
03:32:34,076 --> 03:32:37,287
The Poles weren't exterminated,

2426
03:32:37,746 --> 03:32:39,789
and the Jews were.

2427
03:32:39,915 --> 03:32:43,751
That's the difference.
An external difference, right?

2428
03:32:44,420 --> 03:32:46,296
And the inner difference?

2429
03:32:46,422 --> 03:32:48,631
I can't assess that.

2430
03:32:48,757 --> 03:32:54,721
I don't know enough
about psychology and anthropology.

2431
03:32:55,890 --> 03:32:58,933
The difference between
the Poles and the Jews?

2432
03:32:59,059 --> 03:33:01,936
Anyway, they couldn't stand each other.

2433
03:33:04,481 --> 03:33:06,774
(In French) On January 19, 1942,

2434
03:33:06,901 --> 03:33:09,986
the rabbi of Grabow,
Jacob Schulmann,

2435
03:33:10,112 --> 03:33:13,948
wrote the following letter
to his friends in Lodz:

2436
03:33:15,075 --> 03:33:16,534
"My very dear friends,

2437
03:33:16,660 --> 03:33:21,706
"I didn't write sooner:
I wasn't sure of what I'd heard.

2438
03:33:21,832 --> 03:33:25,877
"Alas, to our great grief,
we now know all.

2439
03:33:26,503 --> 03:33:30,882
"I've spoken to an eyewitness
who managed to escape.

2440
03:33:31,008 --> 03:33:32,800
"He told me everything.

2441
03:33:32,927 --> 03:33:37,221
"They're exterminated
in Chelmno, near Dombie,

2442
03:33:37,348 --> 03:33:40,350
"and they're all buried
in the nearby Rzeszow forest.

2443
03:33:40,893 --> 03:33:45,897
"The Jews are killed in 2 ways:
by shooting or gas.

2444
03:33:46,023 --> 03:33:50,735
"It's just happened
to thousands of Lodz Jews.

2445
03:33:52,071 --> 03:33:56,199
"Do not think that
this is being written by a madman.

2446
03:33:56,325 --> 03:34:00,161
"Alas, it is the tragic, horrible truth.

2447
03:34:01,121 --> 03:34:05,625
"Horror, horror.
Man, shed thy clothes,

2448
03:34:05,751 --> 03:34:08,920
"cover thy head with ashes,
run in the streets

2449
03:34:09,046 --> 03:34:11,172
"and dance in thy madness.

2450
03:34:12,549 --> 03:34:15,969
"I am so weary that my pen
can no longer write.

2451
03:34:16,428 --> 03:34:19,931
"Creator of the universe, help us!"

2452
03:34:20,975 --> 03:34:25,269
The creator did not help
the Jews of Grabow.

2453
03:34:25,396 --> 03:34:29,983
With their rabbi, they all died
in the gas van at Chelmno

2454
03:34:30,109 --> 03:34:31,985
a few weeks later.

2455
03:34:32,111 --> 03:34:36,155
Chelmno is only 12 miles from Grabow.

2456
03:35:12,735 --> 03:35:14,736
(Cockerel crowing)

2457
03:35:22,453 --> 03:35:25,663
(Lanzmann) Were there a lot
of Jews here in Grabow?

2458
03:35:25,789 --> 03:35:27,582
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)

2459
03:35:27,708 --> 03:35:30,668
- (Woman speaks Polish)
- A lot, quite a few.

2460
03:35:34,631 --> 03:35:37,008
(Interpreter)
They were sent to Chelmno.

2461
03:35:37,134 --> 03:35:40,219
(Lanzmann) Has she always lived
near the synagogue?

2462
03:35:40,345 --> 03:35:43,097
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)

2463
03:35:51,106 --> 03:35:54,317
The Polish word is "Buzinica"
not synagogue.

2464
03:35:54,443 --> 03:35:56,277
(Chatting in Polish)

2465
03:36:04,536 --> 03:36:07,413
She says it's now
a furniture warehouse

2466
03:36:07,539 --> 03:36:11,959
but they didn't harm it
from a religious point of view.

2467
03:36:12,086 --> 03:36:15,588
It hasn't been... desecrated.

2468
03:36:16,840 --> 03:36:19,133
Does she remember the rabbi
at the synagogue?

2469
03:36:19,259 --> 03:36:22,011
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)

2470
03:36:22,846 --> 03:36:24,889
(Woman speaks Polish)

2471
03:36:25,766 --> 03:36:28,392
THE SYNAGOGUE IN GRABOW

2472
03:36:28,519 --> 03:36:33,106
She says she's 80 now,
and her memory isn't too good,

2473
03:36:33,232 --> 03:36:36,067
and the Jews have been gone
for 40 years.

2474
03:36:54,962 --> 03:36:58,089
Barbara, tell this couple
they live in a lovely house.

2475
03:36:58,215 --> 03:37:00,049
(Speaks Polish)

2476
03:37:01,927 --> 03:37:04,929
Do they agree?
Do they think it's a lovely house?

2477
03:37:07,933 --> 03:37:11,269
Yes.

2478
03:37:15,274 --> 03:37:19,485
Tell me about the decoration
of this house, the doors,

2479
03:37:19,611 --> 03:37:21,696
what's it mean?

2480
03:37:28,287 --> 03:37:31,205
People used to do carvings like that.

2481
03:37:31,331 --> 03:37:33,374
Did they decorate it that way?

2482
03:37:35,043 --> 03:37:36,169
No.

2483
03:37:36,295 --> 03:37:39,338
- No, it was the Jews again.
- The Jews did it?

2484
03:37:40,465 --> 03:37:43,259
The door's a good century old.

2485
03:37:43,385 --> 03:37:45,386
Did Jews own this house?

2486
03:37:48,682 --> 03:37:50,558
Yes, all these houses.

2487
03:37:50,684 --> 03:37:53,936
All these houses
on the square were Jewish?

2488
03:37:57,858 --> 03:38:03,321
Jews lived in all the ones in front,
on the street.

2489
03:38:03,447 --> 03:38:06,240
Yes.
Where did the Poles live?

2490
03:38:09,161 --> 03:38:12,288
In the courtyards,
where the privies were.

2491
03:38:12,414 --> 03:38:14,916
Where the privies were?

2492
03:38:15,959 --> 03:38:18,961
There used to be a store here.

2493
03:38:19,087 --> 03:38:20,338
What kind?

2494
03:38:21,757 --> 03:38:23,633
A food store.

2495
03:38:23,759 --> 03:38:26,802
- Owned by Jews?
- Yes.

2496
03:38:27,304 --> 03:38:30,306
So the Jews lived in the front,

2497
03:38:30,432 --> 03:38:33,935
and the Poles in the courtyard
with the privies.

2498
03:38:40,943 --> 03:38:42,193
Yes.

2499
03:38:43,195 --> 03:38:45,488
How long have these two lived here?

2500
03:38:45,614 --> 03:38:47,865
(Barbara speaks Polish)

2501
03:38:52,788 --> 03:38:55,289
15 years.

2502
03:38:55,415 --> 03:38:58,084
(Lanzmann)
Where did they live before?

2503
03:38:58,543 --> 03:39:00,002
(Wife replies)

2504
03:39:00,128 --> 03:39:02,129
In a courtyard across the square.

2505
03:39:02,256 --> 03:39:04,090
(Lanzmann) They've got rich.

2506
03:39:04,216 --> 03:39:05,758
- Them?
- Yes.

2507
03:39:07,552 --> 03:39:09,136
- Yes.
- (Laughter)

2508
03:39:09,263 --> 03:39:11,264
(Lanzmann)
How did they get rich?

2509
03:39:15,269 --> 03:39:16,978
They worked.

2510
03:39:17,104 --> 03:39:22,441
- How old is the gentleman?
- He's 70.

2511
03:39:22,567 --> 03:39:24,694
He looks young and healthy.

2512
03:39:27,948 --> 03:39:29,490
(Barbara laughs)

2513
03:39:29,616 --> 03:39:32,285
Do they remember the Jews of Grabow?

2514
03:39:34,830 --> 03:39:38,165
Yes.
And when they were deported, too.

2515
03:39:38,292 --> 03:39:41,877
They recall the deportation
of the Grabow Jews?

2516
03:39:42,879 --> 03:39:44,714
He says he speaks "Jew" well.

2517
03:39:44,840 --> 03:39:47,091
- He speaks "Jew"?
- Yes.

2518
03:39:49,011 --> 03:39:51,804
As a kid he played with Jews
so he speaks "Jew".

2519
03:39:51,930 --> 03:39:56,684
(Husband continues)

2520
03:40:05,527 --> 03:40:10,239
First, they grouped them there,
where that restaurant is,

2521
03:40:10,365 --> 03:40:13,075
or in this square,
and took their gold.

2522
03:40:29,426 --> 03:40:33,095
An elder among the Jews
collected the gold

2523
03:40:33,221 --> 03:40:36,223
and turned it over to the police.

2524
03:40:36,350 --> 03:40:41,062
That done, the Jews were put
in the Catholic church.

2525
03:40:41,188 --> 03:40:44,440
(Lanzmann) A lot of gold?

2526
03:40:46,276 --> 03:40:48,819
Yes, the Jews had gold...

2527
03:40:49,279 --> 03:40:52,281
(Wife replies)

2528
03:40:52,407 --> 03:40:55,242
...and some handsome candelabras.

2529
03:41:06,046 --> 03:41:10,049
(Lanzmann) Did the Poles know
the Jews would be killed at Chelmno?

2530
03:41:10,175 --> 03:41:12,009
(Barbara speaks Polish)

2531
03:41:17,391 --> 03:41:19,016
Yes, they knew.

2532
03:41:20,685 --> 03:41:23,104
The Jews knew it, too.

2533
03:41:24,231 --> 03:41:27,191
(Lanzmann) Did the Jews try
to do something about it,

2534
03:41:27,317 --> 03:41:29,777
to rebel, to escape?

2535
03:41:30,487 --> 03:41:32,488
(Barbara speaks Polish)

2536
03:41:45,919 --> 03:41:47,920
The young tried to run away...

2537
03:41:51,091 --> 03:41:53,467
...but the Germans caught them

2538
03:41:53,593 --> 03:41:57,179
and maybe killed them
even more savagely.

2539
03:41:57,305 --> 03:41:59,306
(Man continues)

2540
03:42:06,773 --> 03:42:11,485
In every town and village,
2 or 3 streets were closed,

2541
03:42:11,611 --> 03:42:13,237
and the Jews were kept under guard.

2542
03:42:13,363 --> 03:42:15,281
They couldn't leave there.

2543
03:42:15,991 --> 03:42:17,825
(Man continues)

2544
03:42:21,788 --> 03:42:25,541
Then they were locked
in the Polish church here in Grabow

2545
03:42:25,667 --> 03:42:28,169
and later taken to Chelmno.

2546
03:42:30,046 --> 03:42:33,716
THE SYNAGOGUE
IN THE BACKGROUND

2547
03:42:43,018 --> 03:42:45,769
(People chatting in Polish)

2548
03:42:59,201 --> 03:43:02,953
The Germans threw children
as small as these...

2549
03:43:03,079 --> 03:43:05,831
- Yes?
- ...into the trucks by the legs.

2550
03:43:05,957 --> 03:43:07,750
She saw that?

2551
03:43:08,585 --> 03:43:11,795
- Old folks too.
- Threw kids into the trucks.

2552
03:43:11,922 --> 03:43:15,424
The Poles knew the Jews
would be gassed in Chelmno?

2553
03:43:16,009 --> 03:43:17,676
Did this gentleman know?

2554
03:43:20,597 --> 03:43:22,306
- (Lanzmann) Yes?
- Yes.

2555
03:43:27,020 --> 03:43:30,898
(Lanzmann) Does he recall
the Jews' deportation from Grabow?

2556
03:43:32,651 --> 03:43:34,109
(Barbara) Yes.

2557
03:43:34,236 --> 03:43:36,946
(Man continues)

2558
03:43:37,072 --> 03:43:39,615
At that time, he worked in the mill.

2559
03:43:39,741 --> 03:43:43,410
- (Lanzmann) There, opposite?
- Yes, and they saw it all.

2560
03:43:44,120 --> 03:43:47,665
What did he think of it?
Was it a sad sight?

2561
03:43:47,791 --> 03:43:49,625
(Barbara speaks Polish)

2562
03:43:56,091 --> 03:43:57,591
Yes, it was...

2563
03:43:58,134 --> 03:43:59,635
Yes.

2564
03:44:01,555 --> 03:44:05,849
Yes. How could you see that
without sadness?

2565
03:44:05,976 --> 03:44:08,143
(Hoof beats)

2566
03:44:13,316 --> 03:44:15,776
What trades were the Jews in?

2567
03:44:23,159 --> 03:44:25,578
They were tanners, tradesmen...

2568
03:44:28,498 --> 03:44:29,999
...tailors.

2569
03:44:37,090 --> 03:44:43,053
They sold things...
eggs, chickens, butter.

2570
03:44:46,391 --> 03:44:48,559
(Barbara)
There were a lot of tailors...

2571
03:44:51,104 --> 03:44:52,605
...tradesmen, too.

2572
03:44:52,731 --> 03:44:54,231
(Man continues)

2573
03:44:54,357 --> 03:44:57,067
But most were tanners.

2574
03:45:00,780 --> 03:45:05,868
- They had beards and side locks.
- (Lanzmann) Yes.

2575
03:45:05,994 --> 03:45:08,203
He says they weren't pretty.

2576
03:45:08,330 --> 03:45:10,289
(Lanzmann) They weren't pretty?

2577
03:45:12,042 --> 03:45:13,917
- They stank, too.
- They stank?

2578
03:45:14,044 --> 03:45:15,502
- Yes.
- Yes?

2579
03:45:15,629 --> 03:45:18,130
Why did they stink?

2580
03:45:19,591 --> 03:45:23,469
Because they were tanners,
and the hides stink.

2581
03:45:24,888 --> 03:45:26,889
(Chatting in Polish)

2582
03:45:27,515 --> 03:45:29,516
The Jewish women were beautiful.

2583
03:45:32,103 --> 03:45:34,813
The Poles liked
to make love with them.

2584
03:45:34,939 --> 03:45:37,900
Are Polish women glad
there are no Jewesses left?

2585
03:45:38,026 --> 03:45:39,860
(Woman continues in Polish)

2586
03:45:45,617 --> 03:45:48,661
(Lanzmann) What did she say?

2587
03:45:48,787 --> 03:45:53,040
(Barbara) The women
who are her age now

2588
03:45:53,166 --> 03:45:55,793
also liked to make love.

2589
03:45:55,919 --> 03:45:58,796
(Lanzmann) So the Jewish women
were competitors?

2590
03:46:02,550 --> 03:46:06,095
(Barbara) It's crazy how
the Poles liked the little Jewesses!

2591
03:46:06,221 --> 03:46:08,222
Do the Poles miss the little Jewesses?

2592
03:46:12,936 --> 03:46:15,979
(Barbara) Naturally,
such beautiful women!

2593
03:46:16,106 --> 03:46:19,692
Why? What made them so beautiful?

2594
03:46:28,910 --> 03:46:32,037
(Barbara) Because they did nothing.
Polish women worked.

2595
03:46:32,163 --> 03:46:36,667
Jewish women only thought
of their beauty and clothes.

2596
03:46:36,793 --> 03:46:40,212
(Lanzmann) So Jewesses did no work?

2597
03:46:40,338 --> 03:46:42,131
- None at all.
- Why not?

2598
03:46:44,968 --> 03:46:49,805
- They were rich.
- (Women continue speaking)

2599
03:46:49,931 --> 03:46:53,350
The Poles had to serve them and work.

2600
03:46:53,476 --> 03:46:55,686
(Lanzmann)
I heard her use the word "capital."

2601
03:46:56,855 --> 03:46:59,440
(Barbara)
The capital was in the hands of the Jews.

2602
03:46:59,566 --> 03:47:01,734
(Lanzmann)
Yes... You didn't translate that.

2603
03:47:02,652 --> 03:47:06,864
Ask her again. So the capital
was in the Jews' hands?

2604
03:47:06,990 --> 03:47:09,158
(Barbara speaks Polish)

2605
03:47:10,076 --> 03:47:12,119
All Poland was in the Jews' hands.

2606
03:47:12,245 --> 03:47:15,539
Are they glad there are
no more Jews here, or sad?

2607
03:47:16,374 --> 03:47:18,375
(Barbara speaks Polish)

2608
03:47:38,396 --> 03:47:39,855
It doesn't bother them.

2609
03:47:39,981 --> 03:47:44,860
As you know, Jews and Germans
ran all Polish industry before the war.

2610
03:47:44,986 --> 03:47:47,321
Did they like them on the whole?

2611
03:47:47,447 --> 03:47:49,281
(Barbara speaks Polish)

2612
03:47:52,660 --> 03:47:55,496
(Man replies)

2613
03:47:55,622 --> 03:48:01,752
Not much.
Above all, they were dishonest.

2614
03:48:04,631 --> 03:48:08,967
Was life in Grabow more fun
when the Jews were here?

2615
03:48:09,594 --> 03:48:11,428
(Barbara in Polish)

2616
03:48:23,066 --> 03:48:24,900
He'd rather not say.

2617
03:48:25,026 --> 03:48:27,820
Why does he call them dishonest?

2618
03:48:27,946 --> 03:48:29,780
(Barbara in Polish)

2619
03:48:38,540 --> 03:48:42,584
They exploited the Poles.
That's what they lived off.

2620
03:48:42,710 --> 03:48:45,045
How did they exploit them?

2621
03:48:59,561 --> 03:49:01,436
By imposing their prices.

2622
03:49:06,359 --> 03:49:09,653
- Ask her if she likes her house.
- (Speaking Polish)

2623
03:49:09,779 --> 03:49:11,071
Yes,

2624
03:49:12,240 --> 03:49:15,325
But her children live
in much better houses.

2625
03:49:16,119 --> 03:49:18,120
In modern houses.

2626
03:49:21,249 --> 03:49:27,296
- They've all gone to college.
- Great, that's progress!

2627
03:49:31,301 --> 03:49:36,555
Her children are
the best educated in the village.

2628
03:49:36,681 --> 03:49:39,975
Very good, Madam.
Long live education!

2629
03:49:42,937 --> 03:49:46,815
Isn't this a very old house?

2630
03:49:49,068 --> 03:49:50,986
Yes, Jews lived here before.

2631
03:49:51,112 --> 03:49:54,615
So Jews used to live here.
Did she know them?

2632
03:49:57,452 --> 03:49:58,660
Yes.

2633
03:49:58,786 --> 03:50:01,496
- What was their name?
- (Barbara in Polish)

2634
03:50:06,628 --> 03:50:09,630
- She doesn't know.
- What was their trade?

2635
03:50:11,257 --> 03:50:15,010
Benkel, their name was.
Benkel.

2636
03:50:15,637 --> 03:50:19,848
- And what was their trade?
- (Barbara in Polish)

2637
03:50:24,354 --> 03:50:25,812
(Man speaks Polish)

2638
03:50:25,939 --> 03:50:28,482
They had a butcher's shop.

2639
03:50:28,608 --> 03:50:31,193
(Lanzmann) A butcher's shop.
Why is she laughing?

2640
03:50:33,988 --> 03:50:37,449
Because the gentleman said it was...

2641
03:50:38,868 --> 03:50:43,497
a butcher's shop where
you could buy cheap meat.

2642
03:50:43,623 --> 03:50:47,376
What does he think about
them being gassed in trucks?

2643
03:50:48,252 --> 03:50:50,087
(Barbara in Polish)

2644
03:50:54,968 --> 03:50:56,385
(Man replies)

2645
03:50:56,511 --> 03:50:58,720
He says he doesn't like that at all.

2646
03:50:58,846 --> 03:51:00,681
(Man continues)

2647
03:51:08,606 --> 03:51:12,401
If they'd gone to Israel
of their own free will,

2648
03:51:12,527 --> 03:51:14,277
he might have been glad.

2649
03:51:14,404 --> 03:51:18,198
But killing them was unpleasant.

2650
03:51:21,452 --> 03:51:23,412
(Lanzmann)
Does he miss the Jews?

2651
03:51:23,538 --> 03:51:25,372
(Barbara in Polish)

2652
03:51:35,425 --> 03:51:38,719
Yes, because there were
some beautiful Jewesses.

2653
03:51:38,845 --> 03:51:40,971
For the young, it was fine.

2654
03:51:41,097 --> 03:51:46,018
(Lanzmann) Are they sorry the Jews
are no longer here or pleased?

2655
03:51:46,144 --> 03:51:47,978
(Barbara in Polish)

2656
03:51:54,569 --> 03:51:59,531
How can I tell?
I never went to school.

2657
03:51:59,657 --> 03:52:03,910
I can only think of how I am now.
Now I'm fine.

2658
03:52:04,746 --> 03:52:08,081
- Is she better off?
- (Barbara in Polish)

2659
03:52:13,421 --> 03:52:15,964
Before the war, she picked potatoes.

2660
03:52:16,090 --> 03:52:19,801
Now she sells eggs,
and she's much better off.

2661
03:52:19,927 --> 03:52:23,513
Because the Jews are gone
or because of socialism?

2662
03:52:23,639 --> 03:52:25,474
(Barbara in Polish)

2663
03:52:29,395 --> 03:52:34,107
She doesn't care, she's happy
because she's doing well now.

2664
03:52:34,233 --> 03:52:37,903
How did he feel
about losing his classmates?

2665
03:52:38,029 --> 03:52:39,863
(Barbara in Polish)

2666
03:52:42,158 --> 03:52:43,950
(Wife Replies)

2667
03:52:46,454 --> 03:52:49,164
It still upsets him.

2668
03:52:49,290 --> 03:52:51,958
- Does he miss the Jews?
- (Barbara in Polish)

2669
03:52:52,085 --> 03:52:53,418
Certainly.

2670
03:52:53,544 --> 03:52:55,921
- They were good Jews, Madam says.
- (Lanzmann) Yes?

2671
03:52:58,257 --> 03:53:01,259
GRABOW IN WINTER

2672
03:53:47,682 --> 03:53:50,892
(Michelsohn)
The Jews came in trucks,

2673
03:53:53,020 --> 03:53:56,898
and later there was
a narrow-gauge railway

2674
03:53:57,024 --> 03:53:59,568
that they arrived on.

2675
03:54:00,444 --> 03:54:05,115
They were packed tightly in the trucks,

2676
03:54:05,241 --> 03:54:08,994
or in the cars
of the narrow-gauge railway.

2677
03:54:10,329 --> 03:54:12,831
Lots of women and children.

2678
03:54:12,957 --> 03:54:16,543
Men too, but most of them were old.

2679
03:54:16,669 --> 03:54:21,381
The strongest were put in work details.

2680
03:54:21,841 --> 03:54:26,011
They walked with chains on their legs.

2681
03:54:26,137 --> 03:54:29,181
In the morning, they fetched water,

2682
03:54:29,307 --> 03:54:32,684
looked for food, and so on.

2683
03:54:32,810 --> 03:54:35,562
- (Lanzmann) On work detail?
- Jews on work detail.

2684
03:54:35,688 --> 03:54:37,230
These weren't killed right away.

2685
03:54:37,356 --> 03:54:39,399
That was done later.

2686
03:54:39,525 --> 03:54:42,611
I don't know what became of them.

2687
03:54:42,737 --> 03:54:45,280
They didn't survive, anyway.

2688
03:54:45,406 --> 03:54:47,657
(Lanzmann) Two of them did.

2689
03:54:47,783 --> 03:54:49,701
- Only two.
- Yes.

2690
03:54:49,827 --> 03:54:51,828
They were in chains?

2691
03:54:52,872 --> 03:54:54,831
- On the legs.
- All of them?

2692
03:54:54,957 --> 03:55:02,130
The workers, yes.
The others were killed at once.

2693
03:55:02,256 --> 03:55:07,719
The Jewish work squad went
through the village in chains.

2694
03:55:07,845 --> 03:55:09,638
- Yes?
- Mm-hmm.

2695
03:55:09,764 --> 03:55:13,683
Could people speak to them?

2696
03:55:13,809 --> 03:55:18,146
No, that was impossible.

2697
03:55:18,272 --> 03:55:19,648
Why?

2698
03:55:20,691 --> 03:55:22,734
No one dared.

2699
03:55:23,444 --> 03:55:25,654
- What?
- No one dared.

2700
03:55:25,780 --> 03:55:28,323
- Yes.
- Understand?

2701
03:55:28,950 --> 03:55:31,034
Yes... No one dared.

2702
03:55:31,160 --> 03:55:33,119
Why, was it dangerous?

2703
03:55:33,246 --> 03:55:40,335
- Yes, there were guards.
- Yes.

2704
03:55:43,381 --> 03:55:47,050
Anyway, people wanted
nothing to do with all that.

2705
03:55:47,843 --> 03:55:49,469
- You see?
- Yes.

2706
03:55:49,595 --> 03:55:53,848
Gets on your nerves,
seeing that every day.

2707
03:56:01,440 --> 03:56:06,236
You can't force a whole village
to watch such distress.

2708
03:56:07,738 --> 03:56:10,031
When the Jews arrived,

2709
03:56:10,157 --> 03:56:14,160
when they were pushed
into the church or the castle...

2710
03:56:14,912 --> 03:56:16,705
And the screams!

2711
03:56:16,831 --> 03:56:20,583
It was frightful! Depressing.

2712
03:56:20,710 --> 03:56:24,754
Day after day, the same spectacle!

2713
03:56:28,718 --> 03:56:32,929
It was terrible!
A sad spectacle!

2714
03:56:33,806 --> 03:56:37,434
They screamed.
They knew what was happening.

2715
03:56:38,769 --> 03:56:42,856
At first, the Jews thought
they were going to be deloused.

2716
03:56:43,399 --> 03:56:47,027
But they soon understood.

2717
03:56:47,153 --> 03:56:49,946
Their screams grew wilder and wilder.

2718
03:56:51,782 --> 03:56:54,826
Horrifying screams. Screams of terror.

2719
03:56:54,952 --> 03:56:58,747
Because they knew
what was happening to them.

2720
03:57:01,500 --> 03:57:05,670
(Lanzmann) Do you know how many
Jews were exterminated there?

2721
03:57:07,506 --> 03:57:11,343
(Michelsohn) Four something,
400,000 or 40,000...

2722
03:57:11,469 --> 03:57:13,053
(Lanzmann) 400,000.

2723
03:57:14,305 --> 03:57:18,183
(Michelsohn) 400,000, yes.
I knew it had a 4 in it.

2724
03:57:19,560 --> 03:57:22,103
Sad, sad, sad!

2725
03:57:22,229 --> 03:57:27,359
(Srebnik sings in German)
♪When the soldiers march

2726
03:57:27,485 --> 03:57:30,695
♪ The girls open
their windows and doors... ♪

2727
03:57:39,163 --> 03:57:45,168
(Lanzmann) Do you remember
a Jewish child, a boy of 13?

2728
03:57:45,294 --> 03:57:48,421
He was in the work squad.

2729
03:57:48,547 --> 03:57:51,633
He sang on the river.

2730
03:57:51,759 --> 03:57:53,843
- (Michelsohn) On the Narew River?
- Yes.

2731
03:57:54,678 --> 03:57:57,013
- Is he still alive?
- Yes, he is alive.

2732
03:57:57,598 --> 03:58:02,060
(Lanzmann) He sang a German song

2733
03:58:02,520 --> 03:58:07,899
that the SS in Chelmno taught him.

2734
03:58:08,025 --> 03:58:11,027
"When the soldiers march...

2735
03:58:11,153 --> 03:58:13,822
(Michelsohn) "The girls open
their windows and doors..."

2736
03:58:13,948 --> 03:58:15,990
(Continues singing)

2737
03:58:27,837 --> 03:58:29,838
SIMON SREBNIK

2738
03:58:29,964 --> 03:58:34,968
SURVIVOR OF 2ND PERIOD
OF EXTERMINATION AT CHELMNO

2739
03:58:35,094 --> 03:58:37,595
THE CHURCH PERIOD

2740
03:58:38,431 --> 03:58:40,432
(♪Organ plays)

2741
03:58:42,935 --> 03:58:44,936
(♪Sings Polish hymn)

2742
03:58:48,983 --> 03:58:50,984
(♪Congregation joins in)

2743
03:59:48,167 --> 03:59:50,418
(Lanzmann)
So it's a holiday in Chelmno?

2744
03:59:50,544 --> 03:59:52,045
(Barbara in Polish)

2745
03:59:52,171 --> 03:59:53,671
(Together) Yes.

2746
03:59:53,797 --> 03:59:56,132
(Lanzmann) What holiday?
What's being celebrated?

2747
04:00:01,180 --> 04:00:04,599
(Barbara) The birth of the Virgin Mary.
It's her birthday.

2748
04:00:04,725 --> 04:00:07,101
- (Lanzmann) Birth of the Virgin Mary?
- Yes.

2749
04:00:07,228 --> 04:00:09,854
(Lanzmann) It's a huge crowd, isn't it?

2750
04:00:09,980 --> 04:00:12,273
(Barbara in Polish)

2751
04:00:13,609 --> 04:00:19,447
But the weather's bad...
it's raining.

2752
04:00:20,115 --> 04:00:22,909
(Lanzmann) Ask them if they're glad
to see Srebnik again.

2753
04:00:23,035 --> 04:00:24,869
(Barbara in Polish)

2754
04:00:28,123 --> 04:00:31,292
- Very, it's a great pleasure.
- (Lanzmann) Why?

2755
04:00:33,212 --> 04:00:35,296
(Barbara in Polish)

2756
04:00:35,422 --> 04:00:38,758
They're glad to see him again,

2757
04:00:41,387 --> 04:00:44,389
because they know
all he's lived through.

2758
04:00:44,515 --> 04:00:48,351
Seeing him as he is now,
they're very pleased.

2759
04:00:48,477 --> 04:00:50,353
- They're pleased?
- Yes.

2760
04:00:50,980 --> 04:00:53,815
Why does the whole village
remember him?

2761
04:00:53,941 --> 04:00:57,026
(Barbara in Polish)

2762
04:01:09,248 --> 04:01:11,708
They remember him well

2763
04:01:12,918 --> 04:01:16,963
because he walked
with chains on his ankles,

2764
04:01:17,089 --> 04:01:20,967
and he sang on the river.

2765
04:01:21,093 --> 04:01:22,802
He was young,

2766
04:01:23,429 --> 04:01:25,305
he was skinny,

2767
04:01:25,848 --> 04:01:29,392
he looked ready for his coffin.

2768
04:01:29,518 --> 04:01:32,437
(Lanzmann) Ripe for a coffin!

2769
04:01:32,563 --> 04:01:36,733
- Did he seem happy or sad?
- (Barbara in Polish)

2770
04:01:43,949 --> 04:01:46,034
Even the lady...

2771
04:01:54,501 --> 04:01:59,130
...when she saw that child,

2772
04:01:59,256 --> 04:02:02,717
she told the German,
"Let that child go!"

2773
04:02:02,843 --> 04:02:06,596
He asked her, "Where to?"
"To his father and mother."

2774
04:02:06,722 --> 04:02:10,475
Looking at the sky, he said,
"He'll soon go to them."

2775
04:02:10,601 --> 04:02:12,644
- The German said that?
- Yes.

2776
04:02:13,520 --> 04:02:17,231
They remember when the Jews
were locked in this church?

2777
04:02:17,358 --> 04:02:19,192
(Barbara in Polish)

2778
04:02:22,112 --> 04:02:23,905
Yes, they do.

2779
04:02:28,452 --> 04:02:30,662
They brought them
to the church in trucks.

2780
04:02:30,788 --> 04:02:35,166
- At what time of day?
- (Barbara in Polish)

2781
04:02:38,629 --> 04:02:40,546
All day long and into the night.

2782
04:02:40,673 --> 04:02:44,967
What happened?
Can they describe it in detail?

2783
04:03:04,113 --> 04:03:06,989
At first, the Jews were
taken to the castle.

2784
04:03:07,116 --> 04:03:10,535
Only later were they put
into the church.

2785
04:03:10,661 --> 04:03:12,829
(Lanzmann)
The second phase, right.

2786
04:03:13,706 --> 04:03:16,708
(Barbara) In the morning,
they were taken into the woods.

2787
04:03:16,834 --> 04:03:20,795
(Lanzmann)
How were they taken into the woods?

2788
04:03:20,921 --> 04:03:23,339
(Barbara in Polish)

2789
04:03:27,261 --> 04:03:30,012
In very big armoured vans.

2790
04:03:39,982 --> 04:03:42,734
The gas came through the bottom.

2791
04:03:45,529 --> 04:03:48,823
Then they were carried
in gas vans, right?

2792
04:03:49,366 --> 04:03:52,326
(Barbara in Polish)

2793
04:03:52,453 --> 04:03:54,120
Yes, in gas vans.

2794
04:03:54,246 --> 04:03:57,999
Where did the vans pick them up?

2795
04:03:58,959 --> 04:04:00,376
- The Jews?
- Yes.

2796
04:04:00,502 --> 04:04:03,171
(Barbara in Polish)

2797
04:04:04,131 --> 04:04:06,007
Here, at the church door.

2798
04:04:06,133 --> 04:04:10,052
The trucks pulled up
where they are now?

2799
04:04:10,179 --> 04:04:12,180
No, they went right to the door.

2800
04:04:12,306 --> 04:04:15,641
The vans came to the church door?

2801
04:04:17,936 --> 04:04:21,898
And they all knew
these were death vans?

2802
04:04:22,024 --> 04:04:23,858
(Barbara in Polish)

2803
04:04:28,989 --> 04:04:31,240
Yes, they couldn't help knowing.

2804
04:04:33,243 --> 04:04:35,411
They heard screams at night?

2805
04:04:35,537 --> 04:04:38,748
(Barbara in Polish)

2806
04:04:40,876 --> 04:04:43,085
The Jews moaned, they were hungry.

2807
04:04:43,212 --> 04:04:45,254
(Lanzmann) They were hungry?

2808
04:04:45,964 --> 04:04:48,132
They were shut in and starved.

2809
04:04:48,258 --> 04:04:52,595
- Did they have any food?
- (Barbara in Polish)

2810
04:04:56,809 --> 04:05:01,145
You couldn't look there.
You couldn't talk to a Jew.

2811
04:05:01,271 --> 04:05:03,272
(Chatting in Polish)

2812
04:05:08,237 --> 04:05:12,573
(Barbara) Even going by on the road,
you couldn't look there.

2813
04:05:12,699 --> 04:05:15,326
(Lanzmann) Did they look anyway?

2814
04:05:20,624 --> 04:05:23,709
(Barbara) Yes, vans came,

2815
04:05:23,836 --> 04:05:26,838
and the Jews were moved farther off.

2816
04:05:26,964 --> 04:05:28,923
You could see them,
but on the sly.

2817
04:05:29,049 --> 04:05:31,425
- (Lanzmann) In sidelong glances.
- That's right.

2818
04:05:32,010 --> 04:05:34,470
(Barbara in Polish)

2819
04:05:35,472 --> 04:05:38,349
That's right, in sidelong glances.

2820
04:05:39,184 --> 04:05:42,311
What kind of cries and moans
were heard at night?

2821
04:05:42,437 --> 04:05:48,985
(Barbara in Polish)

2822
04:05:58,579 --> 04:06:03,583
They called on Jesus
and Mary and God,

2823
04:06:03,709 --> 04:06:05,960
sometimes in German,
as she puts it.

2824
04:06:06,086 --> 04:06:11,841
(Lanzmann) The Jews called
on Jesus, Mary and God?

2825
04:06:11,967 --> 04:06:13,926
(Chatting in Polish continues)

2826
04:06:16,013 --> 04:06:20,600
(Barbara) The presbytery
was full of suitcases.

2827
04:06:20,726 --> 04:06:24,270
(Lanzmann) The Jews' suitcases?

2828
04:06:24,396 --> 04:06:26,939
(Barbara) Yes, and there was gold.

2829
04:06:27,065 --> 04:06:29,275
(Church bells ringing)

2830
04:06:30,611 --> 04:06:33,237
How does she know there was gold?

2831
04:06:33,363 --> 04:06:35,990
(Barbara in Polish)

2832
04:06:40,871 --> 04:06:44,081
(Lanzmann)
The procession! We'll stop now.

2833
04:06:45,542 --> 04:06:47,960
(Bells continue)

2834
04:08:28,478 --> 04:08:30,479
(Horse whinnies)

2835
04:09:07,851 --> 04:09:09,810
(Bells cease)

2836
04:09:23,492 --> 04:09:25,618
(Lanzmann) Were there
as many Jews in the church

2837
04:09:25,744 --> 04:09:28,204
as there were Christians today?

2838
04:09:28,705 --> 04:09:35,086
(Barbara in Polish)

2839
04:09:36,421 --> 04:09:37,671
Almost.

2840
04:09:37,798 --> 04:09:41,258
How many gas vans
were needed to empty it out?

2841
04:09:41,384 --> 04:09:45,638
(Barbara in Polish)

2842
04:09:52,145 --> 04:09:53,604
An average of 50.

2843
04:09:53,730 --> 04:09:56,273
(Lanzmann)
It took 50 vans to empty it.

2844
04:09:57,150 --> 04:09:58,901
In a steady stream?

2845
04:09:59,027 --> 04:10:00,861
(Barbara in Polish)

2846
04:10:02,364 --> 04:10:03,739
Yes.

2847
04:10:03,865 --> 04:10:05,741
(Lanzmann) The lady said before

2848
04:10:05,867 --> 04:10:09,370
that the Jews' suitcases were
dumped in the house opposite.

2849
04:10:09,496 --> 04:10:11,330
(Barbara in Polish)

2850
04:10:13,458 --> 04:10:17,086
(Lanzmann) What was in this baggage?

2851
04:10:20,507 --> 04:10:24,093
(Barbara) Pots with false bottoms.

2852
04:10:24,219 --> 04:10:28,180
What was in the false bottoms?

2853
04:10:28,306 --> 04:10:31,225
(Barbara in Polish)

2854
04:10:33,562 --> 04:10:36,021
- Valuables... objects of value.
- Ah, yes?

2855
04:10:36,148 --> 04:10:38,399
(Woman continues in Polish)

2856
04:10:38,525 --> 04:10:41,902
They also had gold in their clothes.

2857
04:10:42,028 --> 04:10:43,863
(Woman continues)

2858
04:10:45,824 --> 04:10:50,953
When given food, the Jews
sometimes threw them valuables

2859
04:10:51,079 --> 04:10:52,872
or sometimes money.

2860
04:10:53,540 --> 04:10:57,626
(Lanzmann) They said before
it was forbidden to talk to Jews.

2861
04:10:57,752 --> 04:10:59,587
(Barbara in Polish)

2862
04:11:04,301 --> 04:11:06,510
Absolutely forbidden.

2863
04:11:09,723 --> 04:11:11,682
(Lanzmann)
Ask them if they miss the Jews.

2864
04:11:11,808 --> 04:11:13,642
(Barbara in Polish)

2865
04:11:17,647 --> 04:11:20,649
- (Woman replies)
- Of course.

2866
04:11:20,775 --> 04:11:22,651
(Woman continues)

2867
04:11:22,777 --> 04:11:27,406
We wept too, Madam says.

2868
04:11:27,532 --> 04:11:29,491
(Lanzmann) Yes. Of course.

2869
04:11:30,702 --> 04:11:34,705
And Mr. Kantarowski gave them
bread and cucumbers.

2870
04:11:43,882 --> 04:11:47,760
(Lanzmann) Why do they think
all this happened to the Jews?

2871
04:11:47,886 --> 04:11:49,720
(Barbara in Polish)

2872
04:11:55,310 --> 04:11:57,436
Because they were the richest!

2873
04:11:59,439 --> 04:12:04,276
Many Poles were also exterminated.

2874
04:12:04,402 --> 04:12:05,861
Even priests.

2875
04:12:05,987 --> 04:12:07,863
Mr. Kantarowski...

2876
04:12:13,578 --> 04:12:16,247
...will tell us what a friend told him.

2877
04:12:16,373 --> 04:12:19,208
It happened in Myndjewyce,
near Warsaw.

2878
04:12:19,334 --> 04:12:20,960
(Lanzmann) Go on.

2879
04:12:21,086 --> 04:12:23,212
(Speaks in Polish)

2880
04:12:39,020 --> 04:12:43,315
(Barbara) The Jews were gathered
in a square.

2881
04:12:43,441 --> 04:12:47,486
The rabbi asked an SS man,
"Can I talk to them?"

2882
04:12:47,946 --> 04:12:49,989
The guard said yes.

2883
04:13:03,003 --> 04:13:07,715
So the rabbi said that
around 2,000 years ago,

2884
04:13:07,841 --> 04:13:12,344
the Jews condemned
the innocent Christ to death.

2885
04:13:23,523 --> 04:13:26,900
And when they did that,
they cried out,

2886
04:13:27,027 --> 04:13:30,904
"Let his blood fall on our heads
and on our sons' heads."

2887
04:13:45,545 --> 04:13:49,214
(Barbara)
Then the rabbi told them,

2888
04:13:49,341 --> 04:13:54,762
"Perhaps the time has come for that,
so let us do nothing.

2889
04:13:55,221 --> 04:13:58,891
"Let us go,
let us do as we're asked."

2890
04:13:59,017 --> 04:14:01,643
(Lanzmann) He thinks the Jews
expiated the death of Christ?

2891
04:14:01,770 --> 04:14:04,605
(Barbara in Polish)

2892
04:14:08,443 --> 04:14:11,987
He doesn't think so,
or even that Christ sought revenge.

2893
04:14:12,113 --> 04:14:15,157
He didn't say that.
The rabbi said it.

2894
04:14:18,787 --> 04:14:21,663
(Barbara)
It was God's will, that's all!

2895
04:14:36,679 --> 04:14:39,556
- (Lanzmann) What'd she say?
- So Pilate washed his hands

2896
04:14:39,682 --> 04:14:44,728
and said, "Christ is innocent,"
he sent Barabbas.

2897
04:14:44,854 --> 04:14:46,897
But the Jews cried out,

2898
04:14:47,023 --> 04:14:50,025
"Let his blood fall on our heads."

2899
04:14:52,987 --> 04:14:55,197
That's all. Now you know!

2900
04:15:08,002 --> 04:15:10,087
(Voices fade)

2901
04:16:19,282 --> 04:16:22,784
(Lanzmann) Was the road
between Chelmno, the village

2902
04:16:22,911 --> 04:16:24,953
and the woods where the pits were,

2903
04:16:25,079 --> 04:16:27,581
was it asphalted as it is now?

2904
04:16:28,249 --> 04:16:30,083
(Barbara in Polish)

2905
04:16:36,799 --> 04:16:38,800
(Falborski speaks in Polish)

2906
04:16:43,389 --> 04:16:48,143
The road was narrower then,
but it was asphalted.

2907
04:16:57,737 --> 04:17:01,490
(Lanzmann) How many feet
were the pits from the road?

2908
04:17:02,075 --> 04:17:03,909
(Barbara in Polish)

2909
04:17:11,125 --> 04:17:13,126
(Falborski speaks in Polish)

2910
04:17:26,224 --> 04:17:30,352
They were around 1,600 feet,

2911
04:17:30,478 --> 04:17:33,772
maybe 1,900 or 2,200 feet away.

2912
04:17:34,899 --> 04:17:39,403
So even from the road,
you couldn't see them.

2913
04:17:53,293 --> 04:17:55,168
How fast did the vans go?

2914
04:17:55,295 --> 04:17:57,254
(Barbara in Polish)

2915
04:17:59,090 --> 04:18:02,509
PAN FALBORSKI

2916
04:18:02,635 --> 04:18:09,558
At moderate speed, kind of slow.

2917
04:18:25,158 --> 04:18:26,658
It was a calculated speed

2918
04:18:26,784 --> 04:18:32,122
because they had to kill
the people inside on the way.

2919
04:18:32,248 --> 04:18:33,999
When they went too fast,

2920
04:18:34,125 --> 04:18:38,670
the people weren't quite dead
on arrival in the woods.

2921
04:18:38,796 --> 04:18:45,218
By going slower, they had time
to kill the people inside.

2922
04:18:46,262 --> 04:18:50,515
Once a van skidded on a curve.

2923
04:18:56,230 --> 04:19:03,111
(Falborski continues)

2924
04:19:03,237 --> 04:19:06,031
Half an hour later, I arrived

2925
04:19:06,157 --> 04:19:09,159
at the hut of a forest warden
named Senajak.

2926
04:19:20,755 --> 04:19:24,675
He told me,
"Too bad you were late.

2927
04:19:24,801 --> 04:19:27,344
"You could have seen
a van that skidded.

2928
04:19:27,470 --> 04:19:31,014
"The rear of the van opened,

2929
04:19:31,140 --> 04:19:33,975
"and the Jews fell out on the road."

2930
04:19:34,977 --> 04:19:36,895
(Falborski continues)

2931
04:19:37,021 --> 04:19:39,189
They were still alive.

2932
04:19:44,946 --> 04:19:50,492
Seeing those Jews crawling,
a Gestapo man

2933
04:19:50,618 --> 04:19:55,163
took out his revolver
and shot them.

2934
04:19:58,418 --> 04:20:00,544
(Falborski continues)

2935
04:20:07,301 --> 04:20:09,010
He finished them all off.

2936
04:20:11,305 --> 04:20:15,934
Then they brought Jews
who were working in the woods.

2937
04:20:20,356 --> 04:20:23,775
They righted the van

2938
04:20:24,485 --> 04:20:27,738
and put the bodies back inside.

2939
04:20:37,290 --> 04:20:39,291
(Srebnik) This was the road

2940
04:20:40,334 --> 04:20:45,297
that the gas vans used.

2941
04:20:47,133 --> 04:20:50,761
There were 80 people in each van.

2942
04:20:55,808 --> 04:20:59,019
When they arrived, the SS said,

2943
04:20:59,145 --> 04:21:01,188
"Open the doors!"

2944
04:21:01,898 --> 04:21:07,194
We opened them.
The bodies tumbled right out.

2945
04:21:08,654 --> 04:21:11,448
An SS man said, "Two men inside!"

2946
04:21:11,574 --> 04:21:17,329
These two men worked at the ovens.
They were experienced.

2947
04:21:18,539 --> 04:21:22,250
Another SS man screamed,

2948
04:21:22,376 --> 04:21:26,213
"Hurry up!
The other van's coming!"

2949
04:21:27,089 --> 04:21:32,844
We worked until
the whole shipment was burned.

2950
04:21:37,600 --> 04:21:41,978
That's how it went, all day long.
So it went.

2951
04:22:12,009 --> 04:22:16,471
I remember that
once they were still alive.

2952
04:22:19,559 --> 04:22:22,352
The ovens were full,

2953
04:22:24,522 --> 04:22:27,858
and the people lay on the ground.

2954
04:22:28,526 --> 04:22:31,444
They were all moving,

2955
04:22:31,571 --> 04:22:34,281
they were coming back to life,

2956
04:22:37,535 --> 04:22:40,871
and when they were thrown
into the ovens,

2957
04:22:40,997 --> 04:22:42,581
they were all conscious. Alive.

2958
04:22:42,707 --> 04:22:46,209
They could feel the fire burn them.

2959
04:23:07,815 --> 04:23:13,194
When we built the ovens,
I wondered what they were for.

2960
04:23:16,574 --> 04:23:19,159
An SS man told me,

2961
04:23:19,285 --> 04:23:24,164
"To make charcoal.
For laundry irons."

2962
04:23:25,124 --> 04:23:27,626
That's what he told me.
I didn't know.

2963
04:23:30,796 --> 04:23:33,840
When the ovens were completed,

2964
04:23:35,968 --> 04:23:39,054
the logs put in

2965
04:23:39,180 --> 04:23:42,974
and the gasoline poured on and lighted,

2966
04:23:44,810 --> 04:23:47,812
and when the first gas van arrived,

2967
04:23:48,272 --> 04:23:53,318
then we knew why the ovens were built.

2968
04:24:03,120 --> 04:24:06,581
When I saw all that,
it didn't affect me.

2969
04:24:07,750 --> 04:24:12,462
Neither did the 2nd or 3rd shipment.

2970
04:24:15,383 --> 04:24:18,760
I was only 13,

2971
04:24:18,886 --> 04:24:22,764
and all I'd ever seen until then

2972
04:24:22,890 --> 04:24:26,393
were dead bodies.

2973
04:24:30,982 --> 04:24:33,149
Maybe I didn't understand.

2974
04:24:33,985 --> 04:24:39,531
Maybe if I'd been older
I'd have understood,

2975
04:24:39,657 --> 04:24:41,658
but the fact is, I didn't.

2976
04:24:41,784 --> 04:24:45,704
I'd never seen anything else.

2977
04:24:46,622 --> 04:24:51,334
In the ghetto, I saw...
in the ghetto in Lodz,

2978
04:24:51,460 --> 04:24:56,172
that as soon as anyone took a step,
he fell dead.

2979
04:24:56,298 --> 04:25:00,552
I thought that was
the way things had to be.

2980
04:25:00,678 --> 04:25:02,178
It was normal.

2981
04:25:02,304 --> 04:25:04,431
I'd walk the streets of Lodz,

2982
04:25:05,641 --> 04:25:10,145
maybe 100 yards,
and there'd be 200 bodies.

2983
04:25:13,149 --> 04:25:14,941
People were hungry.

2984
04:25:15,067 --> 04:25:18,528
They went into the street
and they fell, they fell...

2985
04:25:19,739 --> 04:25:22,615
Sons took their fathers' bread,

2986
04:25:22,742 --> 04:25:25,952
fathers took their sons'.

2987
04:25:26,078 --> 04:25:29,414
Everyone wanted to stay alive.

2988
04:25:31,542 --> 04:25:34,627
So when I came here, to Chelmno,

2989
04:25:35,129 --> 04:25:36,963
I was already...

2990
04:25:37,715 --> 04:25:40,717
I didn't care about anything.

2991
04:25:41,302 --> 04:25:46,723
I thought, if I survive,

2992
04:25:46,849 --> 04:25:49,059
I just want one thing:

2993
04:25:50,186 --> 04:25:52,479
five loaves of bread to eat.

2994
04:25:52,605 --> 04:25:54,314
That's all.

2995
04:25:54,440 --> 04:25:56,941
That's what I thought.

2996
04:25:57,068 --> 04:25:58,818
But I dreamed, too,

2997
04:25:58,944 --> 04:26:02,322
that if I survived,
I'd be the only one left in the world.

2998
04:26:02,448 --> 04:26:05,116
Not another soul. Just me. One.

2999
04:26:11,624 --> 04:26:15,710
Only me left in the world,
if I get out of here.

3000
04:26:32,478 --> 04:26:35,230
THE RUHR

3001
04:26:36,732 --> 04:26:41,945
(Lanzmann) "Geheime Reichssache,"
secret Reich business.

3002
04:26:43,989 --> 04:26:47,617
Berlin, June 5, 1942.

3003
04:26:50,621 --> 04:26:55,834
Changes to be made
to special vehicles now in service

3004
04:26:55,960 --> 04:26:58,545
at Kulmhof (Chelmno),

3005
04:26:58,671 --> 04:27:00,672
and to those now being built.

3006
04:27:06,178 --> 04:27:09,097
Since December 1941,

3007
04:27:09,974 --> 04:27:16,396
97,000 have been processed -
"verarbeitet" in German,

3008
04:27:17,314 --> 04:27:21,234
by the three vehicles in service,
with no major incident.

3009
04:27:23,529 --> 04:27:28,032
In light of observations
made so far, however,

3010
04:27:28,159 --> 04:27:31,494
the following technical changes
are needed:

3011
04:27:32,705 --> 04:27:34,038
First,

3012
04:27:34,915 --> 04:27:40,461
the van's normal load
is usually 9 to 10 per square yard.

3013
04:27:42,882 --> 04:27:46,885
In Saurer vehicles,
which are very spacious,

3014
04:27:48,053 --> 04:27:51,681
maximum use of space is impossible,

3015
04:27:52,391 --> 04:27:55,560
not because of any possible overload,

3016
04:27:56,896 --> 04:28:00,356
but because loading to full capacity

3017
04:28:00,482 --> 04:28:04,152
would affect the vehicle's stability.

3018
04:28:05,821 --> 04:28:10,033
So reduction of the load space
seems necessary.

3019
04:28:12,328 --> 04:28:15,705
It must absolutely
be reduced by a yard,

3020
04:28:15,831 --> 04:28:20,335
instead oftrying
to solve the problem, as hitherto,

3021
04:28:20,461 --> 04:28:24,005
by reducing the number
of pieces loaded.

3022
04:28:27,051 --> 04:28:32,513
Besides,
this extends the operating time,

3023
04:28:34,183 --> 04:28:38,561
as the empty void must also
be filled with carbon monoxide.

3024
04:28:40,314 --> 04:28:44,734
On the other hand,
if the load space is reduced

3025
04:28:45,361 --> 04:28:48,363
and the vehicle is packed solid,

3026
04:28:49,156 --> 04:28:53,451
the operating time can be
considerably shortened.

3027
04:28:54,912 --> 04:28:58,665
The manufacturers told us
during a discussion,

3028
04:28:59,250 --> 04:29:03,002
that reducing the size
of the van's rear

3029
04:29:03,587 --> 04:29:06,130
would throw it badly off balance.

3030
04:29:07,216 --> 04:29:11,094
The front axle, they claim,
would be overloaded.

3031
04:29:14,265 --> 04:29:19,936
In fact, the balance
is automatically restored

3032
04:29:21,146 --> 04:29:24,232
because the merchandise aboard

3033
04:29:25,401 --> 04:29:28,945
displays, during the operation,

3034
04:29:29,071 --> 04:29:33,408
a natural tendency
to rush to the rear doors,

3035
04:29:34,660 --> 04:29:39,706
and are mainly found lying there
at the end of the operation.

3036
04:29:42,293 --> 04:29:47,255
So the front axle is not overloaded.

3037
04:29:52,386 --> 04:29:53,970
Secondly:

3038
04:29:56,223 --> 04:30:01,894
The lighting must be
better protected than now.

3039
04:30:04,148 --> 04:30:07,400
The lamps must be enclosed
in a steel grid

3040
04:30:07,526 --> 04:30:10,445
to prevent their being damaged.

3041
04:30:12,531 --> 04:30:15,158
Lights could be eliminated,

3042
04:30:15,284 --> 04:30:18,870
since they apparently are never used.

3043
04:30:20,914 --> 04:30:25,126
However, it has been observed

3044
04:30:25,252 --> 04:30:27,795
that when the doors are shut,

3045
04:30:28,797 --> 04:30:34,761
the load always
presses hard against them,

3046
04:30:34,887 --> 04:30:37,180
against the doors,

3047
04:30:37,306 --> 04:30:40,016
as soon as darkness sets in.

3048
04:30:40,934 --> 04:30:44,228
This is because the load

3049
04:30:44,855 --> 04:30:47,899
naturally rushes toward the light

3050
04:30:49,443 --> 04:30:51,402
when darkness sets in,

3051
04:30:52,738 --> 04:30:55,865
which makes
closing the doors difficult.

3052
04:30:58,327 --> 04:31:03,998
Also, because
of the alarming nature of darkness,

3053
04:31:05,334 --> 04:31:11,172
screaming always occurs
when the doors are closed.

3054
04:31:13,467 --> 04:31:16,636
It would therefore be useful
to light the lamp

3055
04:31:17,638 --> 04:31:21,307
before and during
the first moments of the operation.

3056
04:31:24,395 --> 04:31:25,895
Third:

3057
04:31:28,148 --> 04:31:30,942
For easy cleaning of the vehicle,

3058
04:31:31,819 --> 04:31:36,864
there must be a sealed drain
in the middle of the floor.

3059
04:31:38,659 --> 04:31:44,080
The drainage hole's cover,
8 to 12 inches in diameter,

3060
04:31:45,082 --> 04:31:47,667
would be equipped with a slanting trap,

3061
04:31:48,585 --> 04:31:51,671
so that fluid liquids

3062
04:31:55,134 --> 04:31:58,386
can drain off during the operation.

3063
04:32:03,809 --> 04:32:05,768
During cleaning,

3064
04:32:05,894 --> 04:32:10,565
the drain can be used
to evacuate large pieces of detritus.

3065
04:32:20,451 --> 04:32:23,578
The aforementioned technical changes

3066
04:32:23,704 --> 04:32:26,247
are to be made
to vehicles in service

3067
04:32:26,373 --> 04:32:30,042
only when they come in for repairs.

3068
04:32:32,629 --> 04:32:36,132
As for the 10 vehicles
ordered from Saurer,

3069
04:32:39,803 --> 04:32:45,725
they must be equipped
with all innovations and changes

3070
04:32:46,810 --> 04:32:50,104
shown by use
and experience to be necessary.

3071
04:32:52,983 --> 04:32:57,570
Submitted for decision
to Gruppenleiter II D,

3072
04:32:57,696 --> 04:33:02,158
SS-Obersturmbannführer
Walter Rauff.

3073
04:33:04,119 --> 04:33:06,746
Signed Just.

3074
04:33:17,382 --> 04:33:20,301
END OF THE FIRST ERA

3075
04:35:02,528 --> 04:35:06,531
FRANZ SUCHOMEL
SS Unterscharführer

3076
04:35:07,825 --> 04:35:10,994
(Suchomel sings in German)
♪ Looking squarely ahead

3077
04:35:11,120 --> 04:35:13,871
♪ Brave and joyous

3078
04:35:13,998 --> 04:35:17,750
♪ At the world

3079
04:35:17,876 --> 04:35:22,171
♪ The squads march to work

3080
04:35:23,465 --> 04:35:27,802
♪ All that matters to us now
is Treblinka

3081
04:35:28,262 --> 04:35:32,181
♪ It is our destiny

3082
04:35:32,307 --> 04:35:36,227
♪ That's why we've become one
with Treblinka

3083
04:35:36,353 --> 04:35:40,481
♪ In no time at all

3084
04:35:40,607 --> 04:35:44,986
♪ We know only the word
of our Commander

3085
04:35:45,112 --> 04:35:49,115
♪ We know only obedience and duty

3086
04:35:49,241 --> 04:35:53,703
♪ We want to serve,
to go on serving

3087
04:35:53,829 --> 04:35:57,623
♪ Until a little luck ends it all

3088
04:35:57,750 --> 04:35:59,751
♪ Hurray! ♪

3089
04:36:02,337 --> 04:36:04,714
(Lanzmann) Once more, but louder.

3090
04:36:05,674 --> 04:36:10,011
(Suchomel) We're laughing about it
but it's so sad.

3091
04:36:10,137 --> 04:36:13,931
(Lanzmann) No one is laughing.
(Suchomel) Don't be sore at me.

3092
04:36:14,058 --> 04:36:18,770
You want history,
I'm giving you history.

3093
04:36:18,896 --> 04:36:21,731
Franz wrote the words.

3094
04:36:21,857 --> 04:36:24,484
The melody came from Buchenwald.

3095
04:36:25,027 --> 04:36:29,113
Camp Buchenwald,
where Franz was a guard.

3096
04:36:29,948 --> 04:36:32,950
New Jews who arrived in the morning...

3097
04:36:33,077 --> 04:36:35,661
- (Lanzmann) New "Worker Jews"?
- Yes.

3098
04:36:35,788 --> 04:36:38,289
They were taught the song,

3099
04:36:38,415 --> 04:36:42,543
and by evening
all of them had to sing it.

3100
04:36:42,669 --> 04:36:45,004
- (Lanzmann) Sing it again.
- All right.

3101
04:36:45,130 --> 04:36:47,590
(Lanzmann) It's very important.
But loud.

3102
04:36:50,677 --> 04:36:55,348
♪ Looking squarely ahead,
brave and joyous

3103
04:36:55,474 --> 04:37:00,520
♪ At the world

3104
04:37:00,646 --> 04:37:04,857
♪ The squads march to work

3105
04:37:05,400 --> 04:37:10,029
♪ All that matters to us now
is Treblinka

3106
04:37:10,155 --> 04:37:14,283
♪ It is our destiny

3107
04:37:14,409 --> 04:37:18,746
♪ That's why we've become one
with Treblinka

3108
04:37:18,872 --> 04:37:22,875
♪ In no time at all

3109
04:37:23,001 --> 04:37:27,380
♪ We know only the word
of our Commander

3110
04:37:27,881 --> 04:37:32,301
♪ We know only obedience and duty

3111
04:37:32,427 --> 04:37:36,889
♪ We want to serve,
to go on serving

3112
04:37:37,015 --> 04:37:40,601
♪ Until a little luck ends it all

3113
04:37:40,727 --> 04:37:42,186
♪ Hurray! ♪

3114
04:37:42,938 --> 04:37:45,022
Satisfied?

3115
04:37:45,149 --> 04:37:48,401
That's unique.
No Jews know that today.

3116
04:37:55,200 --> 04:37:57,034
(Train approaches)

3117
04:39:08,357 --> 04:39:12,276
(Lanzmann) How was it possible
in Treblinka

3118
04:39:12,402 --> 04:39:14,987
in peak days...

3119
04:39:18,033 --> 04:39:21,160
...to "process" 18,000 people?

3120
04:39:21,703 --> 04:39:23,663
18,000 is too high.

3121
04:39:23,789 --> 04:39:28,167
- But I read that figure in court reports.
- Sure.

3122
04:39:28,293 --> 04:39:31,963
To "process" 18,000 people.

3123
04:39:32,965 --> 04:39:35,299
To liquidate them.

3124
04:39:36,969 --> 04:39:40,805
Mr. Lanzmann,
that's an exaggeration.

3125
04:39:40,931 --> 04:39:42,682
Believe me.

3126
04:39:42,808 --> 04:39:44,308
How many?

3127
04:39:44,434 --> 04:39:47,436
12,000 to 15,000.

3128
04:39:47,562 --> 04:39:54,235
But we had to spend
halfthe night at it.

3129
04:39:54,361 --> 04:39:57,863
In January, the trains
started arriving at 6:00am.

3130
04:39:57,990 --> 04:39:59,031
Yes?

3131
04:39:59,491 --> 04:40:01,659
- Always at 6:00am?
- Not always.

3132
04:40:01,785 --> 04:40:03,703
- Often.
- Yes.

3133
04:40:03,829 --> 04:40:07,373
- The schedules were erratic.
- Yes.

3134
04:40:07,499 --> 04:40:12,837
Sometimes one came at 6:00am,
then another at noon,

3135
04:40:12,963 --> 04:40:16,799
maybe another late in the evening.

3136
04:40:16,925 --> 04:40:21,554
- You see?
- So a train arrived.

3137
04:40:22,222 --> 04:40:26,225
I'd like you to describe in detail

3138
04:40:26,810 --> 04:40:29,103
the whole process.

3139
04:40:29,229 --> 04:40:31,772
During the peak period.

3140
04:40:33,275 --> 04:40:39,238
(Suchomel) The trains left
Malkinia station,

3141
04:40:39,364 --> 04:40:41,907
for Treblinka station.

3142
04:40:54,171 --> 04:40:57,548
(Lanzmann) How many miles
from Malkinia to Treblinka?

3143
04:40:58,800 --> 04:41:00,926
(Suchomel) About six miles.

3144
04:41:28,205 --> 04:41:30,664
Treblinka was a village.

3145
04:41:34,669 --> 04:41:36,879
A small village.

3146
04:41:38,590 --> 04:41:40,049
As a station,

3147
04:41:40,175 --> 04:41:45,554
it gained in importance
because of the transports of Jews.

3148
04:41:52,187 --> 04:41:57,400
There were at least 30 to 50 cars.

3149
04:42:02,906 --> 04:42:08,744
They were divided
into sections of 10 or 15,

3150
04:42:08,870 --> 04:42:13,791
shunted into Treblinka Camp,

3151
04:42:14,376 --> 04:42:18,796
and brought to the ramp.

3152
04:42:20,799 --> 04:42:25,553
The other cars waited,
loaded with people,

3153
04:42:26,680 --> 04:42:29,181
in Treblinka station.

3154
04:42:33,478 --> 04:42:38,190
The windows were closed off
with barbed wire,

3155
04:42:39,025 --> 04:42:41,527
so no one could get out.

3156
04:42:42,154 --> 04:42:46,449
On the roofs were the "hellhounds,"

3157
04:42:46,950 --> 04:42:49,618
the Ukrainians or Latvians.

3158
04:42:50,537 --> 04:42:53,122
The Latvians were the worst.

3159
04:42:59,337 --> 04:43:03,549
On the ramp, for each car,

3160
04:43:03,675 --> 04:43:09,138
there stood two Jews
from Blue Squad

3161
04:43:10,223 --> 04:43:12,683
to speed things up.

3162
04:43:14,311 --> 04:43:18,731
They said, "Get out, get out.
Hurry, hurry!"

3163
04:43:20,775 --> 04:43:26,739
There were also
Ukrainians and Germans.

3164
04:43:38,919 --> 04:43:42,338
(Lanzmann) How many Germans?
(Suchomel) 3 to 5.

3165
04:43:42,797 --> 04:43:45,883
- (Lanzmann) No more?
- No more. I can assure you.

3166
04:43:46,009 --> 04:43:49,887
- (Lanzmann) How many Ukrainians?
- Ten.

3167
04:43:51,056 --> 04:43:54,225
(Lanzmann) 10 Ukrainians,
5 Germans...

3168
04:43:54,351 --> 04:43:55,851
Yes, yes.

3169
04:43:55,977 --> 04:44:00,773
2... 20 people from the Blue Squad.

3170
04:44:00,899 --> 04:44:04,944
Men from the Blue Squad
were here and here.

3171
04:44:05,070 --> 04:44:07,863
They sent the people inside.

3172
04:44:09,407 --> 04:44:12,535
The Red Squad was here.

3173
04:44:13,411 --> 04:44:15,579
So the Red Squad was here.

3174
04:44:15,705 --> 04:44:19,875
(Lanzmann)
What was the Red Squad's job?

3175
04:44:20,752 --> 04:44:25,673
(Suchomel) The Red Squad's job
was the clothes,

3176
04:44:25,799 --> 04:44:29,301
to carry the clothes
taken off by the men

3177
04:44:30,095 --> 04:44:32,721
and by the women

3178
04:44:34,432 --> 04:44:40,521
up here immediately.

3179
04:44:42,357 --> 04:44:45,526
(Lanzmann) How much time elapsed
between unloading at the ramp

3180
04:44:45,652 --> 04:44:48,571
and the undressing,

3181
04:44:48,697 --> 04:44:50,531
how many minutes?

3182
04:44:55,370 --> 04:44:58,539
For the women,

3183
04:44:58,665 --> 04:45:01,584
let's say an hour in all.

3184
04:45:02,294 --> 04:45:04,795
An hour, an hour and a half.

3185
04:45:05,505 --> 04:45:09,425
A whole train took 2 hours.

3186
04:45:09,551 --> 04:45:16,724
In 2 hours, it was all over.

3187
04:45:17,559 --> 04:45:23,439
Between the time of arrival...
and death.

3188
04:45:23,565 --> 04:45:27,943
- It was all over in 2 hours?
- 2 and a half hours, 3 hours.

3189
04:45:28,069 --> 04:45:29,570
A whole train?

3190
04:45:29,696 --> 04:45:32,072
Yes, a whole train.

3191
04:45:32,198 --> 04:45:36,702
And for only one section,
for 10 cars, how long?

3192
04:45:37,746 --> 04:45:38,996
I can't calculate that

3193
04:45:39,122 --> 04:45:41,498
because the sections
came one after another,

3194
04:45:41,625 --> 04:45:47,421
and people flooded in constantly.

3195
04:45:47,547 --> 04:45:49,131
Understand?

3196
04:45:49,591 --> 04:45:53,427
Usually, the men waiting
who sat there, or there,

3197
04:45:53,553 --> 04:45:58,265
were sent straight up via the "funnel."

3198
04:45:58,391 --> 04:46:03,062
The women were sent last.

3199
04:46:03,772 --> 04:46:05,356
At the end.

3200
04:46:05,482 --> 04:46:10,569
They had to go up there too,
and often waited here.

3201
04:46:13,490 --> 04:46:16,367
5... at a time.

3202
04:46:16,493 --> 04:46:18,243
50 people.

3203
04:46:18,370 --> 04:46:21,497
60 women with children.

3204
04:46:22,457 --> 04:46:26,710
They had to wait here
until there was room here.

3205
04:46:26,836 --> 04:46:28,712
- (Lanzmann) Naked?
- Naked.

3206
04:46:28,838 --> 04:46:31,882
In summer and winter.

3207
04:46:32,509 --> 04:46:34,468
- (Lanzmann) In winter?
- In winter.

3208
04:46:34,594 --> 04:46:36,679
(Lanzmann) Winter in Treblinka
can be very cold.

3209
04:46:36,805 --> 04:46:41,975
(Suchomel) Well, in winter,
in December, anyway after Christmas.

3210
04:46:42,102 --> 04:46:45,813
But even before Christmas
it was cold as hell.

3211
04:46:46,272 --> 04:46:50,943
Between 15 and minus 4.

3212
04:46:52,153 --> 04:46:58,325
I know. At first it was cold
as hell for us, too.

3213
04:46:58,827 --> 04:47:01,829
We didn't have suitable uniforms.

3214
04:47:02,997 --> 04:47:04,873
It was cold for us too.

3215
04:47:05,542 --> 04:47:07,918
But it was colder for...

3216
04:47:08,044 --> 04:47:11,922
- For those poor people.
- In the "funnel."

3217
04:47:12,048 --> 04:47:15,008
In the "funnel,"
it was very, very cold.

3218
04:47:15,135 --> 04:47:17,261
Very, very cold.

3219
04:47:27,897 --> 04:47:29,690
Can you...

3220
04:47:32,068 --> 04:47:37,239
Can you describe
this "funnel" precisely?

3221
04:47:37,365 --> 04:47:41,869
- What was it like? How wide?
- Yes...

3222
04:47:41,995 --> 04:47:44,580
How was it for the people
in this "funnel"?

3223
04:47:44,706 --> 04:47:49,001
It was about 13 feet wide.

3224
04:47:49,544 --> 04:47:52,838
As wide as this room.

3225
04:47:52,964 --> 04:47:54,506
Wide as this room.

3226
04:47:54,632 --> 04:48:00,262
On each side were walls
this high or this high.

3227
04:48:01,264 --> 04:48:04,933
- Walls?
- No, barbed wire.

3228
04:48:05,059 --> 04:48:08,937
Woven into the barbed wire...

3229
04:48:11,274 --> 04:48:14,193
...were branches of pine trees.

3230
04:48:15,320 --> 04:48:17,613
You understand?

3231
04:48:17,739 --> 04:48:19,782
It was known as "camouflage."

3232
04:48:19,908 --> 04:48:23,744
There was a "Camouflage Squad"
of 20 Jews.

3233
04:48:23,870 --> 04:48:27,581
They brought in new branches
every day.

3234
04:48:27,707 --> 04:48:30,542
- From the woods?
- That's right.

3235
04:48:31,669 --> 04:48:34,546
So everything was screened.

3236
04:48:34,672 --> 04:48:38,509
People couldn't see anything
to the left or right.

3237
04:48:39,886 --> 04:48:41,386
Nothing.

3238
04:48:41,513 --> 04:48:45,474
- You couldn't see through it.
- Impossible?

3239
04:48:45,600 --> 04:48:47,184
It was impossible.

3240
04:48:47,310 --> 04:48:51,522
Here and here too.

3241
04:48:51,648 --> 04:48:53,148
Here, too.

3242
04:48:53,733 --> 04:48:55,400
And here.

3243
04:48:57,487 --> 04:48:59,822
Impossible to see through.

3244
04:49:02,784 --> 04:49:06,829
THE CAMP TODAY

3245
04:49:23,930 --> 04:49:30,686
(Lanzmann) Treblinka, where
so many people were exterminated,

3246
04:49:31,145 --> 04:49:34,231
wasn't big, right?

3247
04:49:36,192 --> 04:49:38,443
(Suchomel) It wasn't big.

3248
04:49:38,570 --> 04:49:42,406
1600 feet at the widest point.

3249
04:49:45,702 --> 04:49:50,122
It wasn't a rectangle,
more like a rhomboid.

3250
04:49:52,417 --> 04:49:56,545
You must realise that
here the ground was flat,

3251
04:49:58,006 --> 04:50:02,050
and here it began to rise.

3252
04:50:07,098 --> 04:50:13,145
And at the top of the slope
was the gas chamber.

3253
04:50:17,317 --> 04:50:19,651
You had to climb up to it.

3254
04:50:20,778 --> 04:50:24,323
(Lanzmann) The "funnel" was called
the "Road to Heaven," right?

3255
04:50:24,824 --> 04:50:29,119
The Jews called it the "Ascension."

3256
04:50:30,038 --> 04:50:33,707
Also "The Last Road."

3257
04:50:37,670 --> 04:50:40,797
I only heard those two names for it.

3258
04:50:40,924 --> 04:50:43,216
(Lanzmann) I need to see it.

3259
04:50:43,343 --> 04:50:47,721
The people go into the "funnel."
Then what happens?

3260
04:50:49,474 --> 04:50:51,767
- They're totally naked?
- Totally naked.

3261
04:50:51,893 --> 04:50:53,310
Here...

3262
04:50:54,729 --> 04:50:58,815
...stood two Ukrainian guards.

3263
04:51:00,401 --> 04:51:02,945
Mainly for the men.

3264
04:51:04,447 --> 04:51:07,282
If the men wouldn't go in,

3265
04:51:08,785 --> 04:51:14,206
they were beaten with whips.

3266
04:51:14,332 --> 04:51:17,876
Here too. Even here.

3267
04:51:18,002 --> 04:51:21,463
The men were "driven" along.
Not the women.

3268
04:51:21,589 --> 04:51:25,217
- Not the women?
- No, they weren't beaten.

3269
04:51:25,343 --> 04:51:28,011
Why such humanity?

3270
04:51:28,137 --> 04:51:33,266
I didn't see it.

3271
04:51:33,726 --> 04:51:35,268
Maybe they were beaten too.

3272
04:51:35,395 --> 04:51:37,187
Why not?

3273
04:51:38,272 --> 04:51:42,484
Why not? They were about
to die anyway, no?

3274
04:51:42,610 --> 04:51:44,611
Why not?

3275
04:51:45,196 --> 04:51:46,697
Hmm?

3276
04:51:48,241 --> 04:51:50,450
At the entrance to the gas chambers,

3277
04:51:51,995 --> 04:51:53,787
undoubtedly.

3278
04:51:55,957 --> 04:51:58,959
ABRAHAM BOMBA
ISRAEL

3279
04:52:50,470 --> 04:52:54,181
(Lanzmann) Abraham, can you tell me
how did it happen?

3280
04:52:55,058 --> 04:52:57,059
How were you chosen?

3281
04:53:01,147 --> 04:53:03,356
(Bomba) There came an order

3282
04:53:05,026 --> 04:53:08,278
from the Germans

3283
04:53:10,948 --> 04:53:14,618
to take out the barbers they could get.

3284
04:53:15,286 --> 04:53:19,748
And they needed them for a certain job.

3285
04:53:19,874 --> 04:53:23,960
What kind of job they needed it for,
we didn't know at that time.

3286
04:53:25,463 --> 04:53:29,966
But we gathered together
as many barbers as we could.

3287
04:53:31,719 --> 04:53:34,638
How long did it happen
after your arrival in Treblinka?

3288
04:53:34,764 --> 04:53:40,685
I would say that happened to me
about four weeks after I was in Treblinka.

3289
04:53:42,688 --> 04:53:45,816
When was it?
It was in the morning, in the...

3290
04:53:46,984 --> 04:53:49,444
That was in the morning.

3291
04:53:49,570 --> 04:53:51,905
It was around 10:00

3292
04:53:52,031 --> 04:53:58,662
when a transport came to Treblinka,

3293
04:53:58,788 --> 04:54:02,624
and the women went
into the gas chambers.

3294
04:54:05,461 --> 04:54:09,381
And they chose some people

3295
04:54:09,841 --> 04:54:14,094
from the working people over there,

3296
04:54:14,220 --> 04:54:18,223
and they asked the question: Who was
a barber, and who was not a barber?

3297
04:54:20,685 --> 04:54:25,063
I was a barber
for quite a number of years.

3298
04:54:26,983 --> 04:54:28,650
Some of them, they knew me,

3299
04:54:28,776 --> 04:54:34,114
like people from Czestochowa
and from other places.

3300
04:54:36,492 --> 04:54:39,035
So, naturally, they chose me,

3301
04:54:39,162 --> 04:54:44,583
and I selected some more barbers
which I know of them,

3302
04:54:46,210 --> 04:54:47,794
and we got it together.

3303
04:54:47,920 --> 04:54:50,589
- Professional barbers?
- Professional, yes.

3304
04:54:50,715 --> 04:54:55,260
We got it together,
and we were waiting for the order.

3305
04:54:56,470 --> 04:54:59,514
And the order came to go with them,

3306
04:55:00,933 --> 04:55:03,685
with the Germans.

3307
04:55:04,187 --> 04:55:07,814
They took us into the gas chamber,

3308
04:55:07,940 --> 04:55:15,030
to the second...
part of the camp in Treblinka.

3309
04:55:17,241 --> 04:55:19,117
It was far from the first part?

3310
04:55:19,243 --> 04:55:24,456
It was not too far,
but it was all covered

3311
04:55:24,916 --> 04:55:30,212
with gates, barbed wire

3312
04:55:30,338 --> 04:55:33,006
and trees covering the gate,

3313
04:55:33,132 --> 04:55:36,927
that nobody should see
there is a gate,

3314
04:55:37,053 --> 04:55:40,639
or there is a place
going into the gas chambers.

3315
04:55:40,765 --> 04:55:44,309
Is it what the Germans
called the 'Schlauch"?

3316
04:55:46,896 --> 04:55:50,899
No, the Germans,
what they called it, they called...

3317
04:55:51,025 --> 04:55:54,611
Like going to...

3318
04:55:54,737 --> 04:55:57,280
"Road to the Heaven."

3319
04:55:57,406 --> 04:55:59,741
- "Himmelweg?"
- "Himmel"... "Himmelweg", yeah.

3320
04:55:59,867 --> 04:56:01,826
"The Road to the Heaven."

3321
04:56:03,788 --> 04:56:07,624
And we knew about it
because we worked for quite a time

3322
04:56:07,750 --> 04:56:11,544
before we went in
to work in the gas chamber.

3323
04:56:12,838 --> 04:56:17,092
Going in over there,
they put in some benches

3324
04:56:18,135 --> 04:56:20,720
where the women could sit

3325
04:56:22,014 --> 04:56:25,058
and not to have the idea

3326
04:56:25,184 --> 04:56:28,853
that this is their last way,

3327
04:56:28,980 --> 04:56:33,858
or that it is the last time
they're going to live

3328
04:56:33,985 --> 04:56:35,527
or they're going to breathe,

3329
04:56:35,653 --> 04:56:39,990
or they're going to know
what is going on.

3330
04:56:40,658 --> 04:56:45,996
How long did it last that the barbers
cut the hair inside the gas chamber,

3331
04:56:46,122 --> 04:56:48,498
because it was not always the case?

3332
04:56:49,250 --> 04:56:54,129
We worked inside the gas chamber
for about a week or 10 days.

3333
04:56:55,756 --> 04:56:57,507
After that,

3334
04:56:58,259 --> 04:57:05,348
they decided that we will cut the hair
in the undressing barrack.

3335
04:57:06,392 --> 04:57:09,936
- How did it look, the gas chamber?
- It was a room, not a big room.

3336
04:57:10,062 --> 04:57:14,566
The room was, I would say,
the size by feet, around...

3337
04:57:16,694 --> 04:57:18,945
...12 by 12.

3338
04:57:19,071 --> 04:57:21,156
But in that room,

3339
04:57:22,742 --> 04:57:25,744
they pushed in a lot of women,

3340
04:57:26,704 --> 04:57:29,748
almost one on top of the other one.

3341
04:57:30,750 --> 04:57:32,959
But, like I mentioned before,

3342
04:57:33,085 --> 04:57:37,172
when we came in, we didn't know
what we're going to do.

3343
04:57:37,298 --> 04:57:41,259
And then, one of the kapos,
he came in and he said,

3344
04:57:41,802 --> 04:57:44,179
"Barbers, you have to do a job,

3345
04:57:44,305 --> 04:57:48,391
"to make to believe
all those women that came in

3346
04:57:48,976 --> 04:57:53,355
"that they are just taking a haircut

3347
04:57:53,481 --> 04:57:57,025
"and going in to take a shower,

3348
04:57:57,151 --> 04:58:00,987
"and, from there,
they go out from this place."

3349
04:58:01,614 --> 04:58:06,618
But we knew already that there is
no way going out from this room.

3350
04:58:06,744 --> 04:58:12,415
Because this room is the last place
where they went in alive,

3351
04:58:12,541 --> 04:58:15,502
and they will never go out alive again.

3352
04:58:17,630 --> 04:58:20,507
Can you describe precisely?

3353
04:58:20,633 --> 04:58:22,384
Precisely, to describe, is...

3354
04:58:22,510 --> 04:58:24,969
When the transport came in...

3355
04:58:25,471 --> 04:58:29,265
Waiting there
until the transport came in.

3356
04:58:29,392 --> 04:58:31,768
The transport came in.

3357
04:58:33,687 --> 04:58:37,440
Women with children.

3358
04:58:39,777 --> 04:58:43,738
And pushing into that place.

3359
04:58:44,573 --> 04:58:47,992
We, the barbers, started to cut the hair,

3360
04:58:48,119 --> 04:58:51,996
and some of them,
I would say all of them,

3361
04:58:52,123 --> 04:58:55,583
some of them, they knew already
what's going to happen to them.

3362
04:58:56,794 --> 04:59:00,213
We tried to do the best
what we could...

3363
04:59:00,339 --> 04:59:03,800
- (Lanzmann) No, no, no.
- ...the most human being what we could.

3364
04:59:05,302 --> 04:59:07,345
(Lanzmann) Excuse me.
How did it happen?

3365
04:59:07,471 --> 04:59:10,682
When the women came
into the gas chamber,

3366
04:59:10,808 --> 04:59:13,852
were you yourself already
in the gas chamber

3367
04:59:13,978 --> 04:59:15,770
or did you come after wards?

3368
04:59:15,896 --> 04:59:19,983
I said we were already
in the gas chamber,

3369
04:59:20,734 --> 04:59:25,321
because we were waiting over there
for the transport to come in.

3370
04:59:27,700 --> 04:59:29,742
- You were inside?
- Inside, yes.

3371
04:59:29,869 --> 04:59:32,912
Inside the gas chamber.
We were already in.

3372
04:59:33,038 --> 04:59:36,040
And suddenly you saw
the women come in?

3373
04:59:37,042 --> 04:59:38,710
Yes, they came in.

3374
04:59:38,836 --> 04:59:40,253
How were they?

3375
04:59:40,379 --> 04:59:45,592
They were undressed, all naked,
without clothes, without anything else.

3376
04:59:45,718 --> 04:59:49,512
- All of them completely naked?
- Completely naked.

3377
04:59:50,890 --> 04:59:53,600
All the women and all the children.

3378
04:59:54,059 --> 04:59:56,895
- All the children too?
- The children too.

3379
04:59:57,021 --> 05:00:01,399
Because they came
from the undressing barracks.

3380
05:00:01,525 --> 05:00:04,152
There was a barracks
before going into the gas chamber

3381
05:00:04,278 --> 05:00:06,821
where they had undressed themselves.

3382
05:00:07,573 --> 05:00:09,782
What did you feel the first time

3383
05:00:09,909 --> 05:00:13,703
that it happened that you saw
all these naked women coming?

3384
05:00:13,829 --> 05:00:16,998
Well, I felt that,

3385
05:00:17,124 --> 05:00:22,212
accordingly,
I got to do what they told me:

3386
05:00:22,338 --> 05:00:24,380
to cut the hair in a way

3387
05:00:24,507 --> 05:00:28,051
that it should look like
a barber is doing his job,

3388
05:00:28,177 --> 05:00:30,220
like he's doing a job for a woman,

3389
05:00:30,346 --> 05:00:32,889
a nice haircut to give them,

3390
05:00:33,015 --> 05:00:38,102
but to take off
as much hair as we could,

3391
05:00:38,229 --> 05:00:41,773
because they needed the women's hair

3392
05:00:43,067 --> 05:00:45,860
to be transported to Germany.

3393
05:00:45,986 --> 05:00:48,196
This means that you didn't shave them?

3394
05:00:49,573 --> 05:00:51,658
No, we did not shave them.

3395
05:00:52,868 --> 05:00:55,286
We just cut their hair
to make them believe

3396
05:00:55,412 --> 05:00:58,540
that they're getting a nice haircut.

3397
05:00:58,666 --> 05:01:01,459
- But you cut with what? With scissors?
- With scissors, yes.

3398
05:01:01,585 --> 05:01:05,380
With scissors and with a comb,
without any clippers.

3399
05:01:06,090 --> 05:01:08,091
Just like a...

3400
05:01:08,217 --> 05:01:10,260
a man's haircut, I would say.

3401
05:01:11,679 --> 05:01:16,474
Not a "baldy" one to take out...
to take off all the hair,

3402
05:01:16,600 --> 05:01:19,644
but just to have the imagination

3403
05:01:19,770 --> 05:01:22,855
that they're getting a nice haircut.

3404
05:01:22,982 --> 05:01:26,359
- There were no mirrors, no?
- No, there were no mirrors.

3405
05:01:26,485 --> 05:01:29,028
There were just benches,
not chairs,

3406
05:01:29,154 --> 05:01:34,576
but just benches where we worked,
about 16, 17 barbers,

3407
05:01:35,411 --> 05:01:38,621
and we had a lot of women in.

3408
05:01:38,747 --> 05:01:41,833
Every haircut,
it took about two minutes,

3409
05:01:41,959 --> 05:01:43,543
no more than that,

3410
05:01:43,669 --> 05:01:48,006
because there was
a lot of women to come in

3411
05:01:48,132 --> 05:01:50,675
and to get rid of their hair.

3412
05:01:51,760 --> 05:01:54,804
Can you imitate now how did you do?

3413
05:01:55,264 --> 05:01:57,223
Well, how we did it...

3414
05:01:57,808 --> 05:01:59,976
We did it as fast as we could,

3415
05:02:00,102 --> 05:02:05,565
because we were quite a number
of professional barbers.

3416
05:02:06,442 --> 05:02:11,654
And the way we did it,
we just stopped this and this...

3417
05:02:13,657 --> 05:02:15,116
...and we cut...

3418
05:02:15,242 --> 05:02:18,369
And we just cut this like this,
here and there and there,

3419
05:02:18,495 --> 05:02:22,415
and this side and this side
and the hair was all finished.

3420
05:02:23,709 --> 05:02:25,877
- With big movements?
- With big...

3421
05:02:26,003 --> 05:02:31,758
Naturally, with big movements,
because we could not waste any time.

3422
05:02:32,676 --> 05:02:35,386
The other party was waiting
already outside,

3423
05:02:35,512 --> 05:02:40,975
coming in to do the same thing,
the same job, the same procedure.

3424
05:02:41,101 --> 05:02:45,063
- You said that you were 16 barbers?
- Yes.

3425
05:02:46,148 --> 05:02:50,902
This means you cut the hair
of how many women in one batch?

3426
05:02:52,029 --> 05:02:55,782
In one batch,
there was about... I would say,

3427
05:02:55,908 --> 05:02:57,784
going into that place,

3428
05:02:57,910 --> 05:03:01,120
between 60 and 70 women

3429
05:03:01,246 --> 05:03:04,248
in the same room at one time.

3430
05:03:04,917 --> 05:03:07,126
After wards, the doors
of the gas chamber were closed?

3431
05:03:07,252 --> 05:03:12,924
After that, we were finished
with this party, another party came in.

3432
05:03:13,050 --> 05:03:16,386
It was around
about 140, 150 women.

3433
05:03:16,512 --> 05:03:20,807
They all were already taken care of.

3434
05:03:20,933 --> 05:03:26,062
They told us to leave the gas chamber

3435
05:03:26,647 --> 05:03:29,857
for a few minutes, about five minutes,

3436
05:03:29,983 --> 05:03:34,862
while they put in the gas
and they choked them to death.

3437
05:03:34,988 --> 05:03:38,908
- Where did you wait?
- Outside the gas chamber.

3438
05:03:39,034 --> 05:03:41,786
And, on the other side, where...

3439
05:03:41,912 --> 05:03:44,122
On this side, the women went in.

3440
05:03:44,248 --> 05:03:47,500
On the other side was
a group of working people,

3441
05:03:47,626 --> 05:03:49,752
which they took out already
the dead bodies.

3442
05:03:49,878 --> 05:03:52,839
Some of them,
they were not exactly dead.

3443
05:03:53,340 --> 05:03:55,466
They took them out,

3444
05:03:55,592 --> 05:03:57,593
and in two minutes...

3445
05:03:57,720 --> 05:04:01,556
Not even two minutes.
In one minute, everything was clear.

3446
05:04:01,682 --> 05:04:07,145
And it was clean to take in
the other party of the other women

3447
05:04:07,271 --> 05:04:11,399
to go through the same thing
what the first one, they went through.

3448
05:04:12,067 --> 05:04:15,319
These women, they had long hair?

3449
05:04:15,446 --> 05:04:18,531
Most of them, they had long hair,
they had short hair,

3450
05:04:18,657 --> 05:04:22,702
but we had to do the job
to get rid of the hair.

3451
05:04:22,828 --> 05:04:27,665
Like I mentioned, the Germans,
they needed the hair for their purposes.

3452
05:04:28,751 --> 05:04:30,668
But I asked you,
and you didn't answer:

3453
05:04:30,794 --> 05:04:33,045
What was your impression

3454
05:04:33,172 --> 05:04:38,968
the first time you saw arriving
these naked women with children?

3455
05:04:39,094 --> 05:04:40,845
What did you feel?

3456
05:04:40,971 --> 05:04:44,140
I tell you something.
To have a feeling over there...

3457
05:04:44,266 --> 05:04:47,643
It was very hard to feel anything
or to have a feeling,

3458
05:04:48,145 --> 05:04:51,731
because, working there day and night
between dead people,

3459
05:04:51,857 --> 05:04:55,485
between bodies, men and women,

3460
05:04:55,611 --> 05:04:57,028
your feeling disappeared.

3461
05:04:57,154 --> 05:05:00,865
You were dead with your feeling.
You had no feeling at all.

3462
05:05:01,325 --> 05:05:04,368
And matter off act, I want to tell you
something what had happened.

3463
05:05:04,495 --> 05:05:06,370
At the gas chamber,

3464
05:05:06,497 --> 05:05:09,999
when I was chosen in over there
to work as a barber,

3465
05:05:10,125 --> 05:05:13,211
some of the women, they came in

3466
05:05:13,337 --> 05:05:16,881
from a transport from my town,
from Czestochowa.

3467
05:05:17,508 --> 05:05:20,259
And from the women,
from the number of women,

3468
05:05:20,385 --> 05:05:23,012
I knew a lot of people.

3469
05:05:23,138 --> 05:05:25,056
- You knew them?
- I knew them.

3470
05:05:25,182 --> 05:05:28,392
I lived with them in my town.

3471
05:05:28,519 --> 05:05:31,646
I lived with them in my street.

3472
05:05:31,772 --> 05:05:35,525
And some of them,
they were my close friends.

3473
05:05:35,651 --> 05:05:39,946
And when they saw me,
all of them started hugging me.

3474
05:05:41,073 --> 05:05:42,532
"Abe!" This and that.

3475
05:05:42,658 --> 05:05:45,618
"What are you doing here?
What's going to happen with us?"

3476
05:05:45,744 --> 05:05:48,412
What could you tell them?

3477
05:05:48,997 --> 05:05:51,082
What could you tell?

3478
05:05:51,208 --> 05:05:55,294
A friend of mine,
he worked as a barber.

3479
05:05:55,420 --> 05:05:58,923
He was also a good barber
in my hometown.

3480
05:05:59,633 --> 05:06:02,426
When his wife and his sister...

3481
05:06:05,806 --> 05:06:08,349
...came into the gas chamber...

3482
05:06:11,937 --> 05:06:13,145
I cannot.

3483
05:07:17,085 --> 05:07:19,253
(Lanzmann)
Go on, Abe. You must.

3484
05:07:26,595 --> 05:07:28,512
You have to.

3485
05:07:29,806 --> 05:07:31,432
I can't do it.

3486
05:07:32,059 --> 05:07:34,518
- It's too horrible.
- Please.

3487
05:07:40,233 --> 05:07:42,944
We have to do it. You know it.

3488
05:07:51,995 --> 05:07:54,080
I won't be able to do it.

3489
05:07:54,206 --> 05:07:57,500
You have to do it.
I know it's very hard.

3490
05:07:58,502 --> 05:08:00,795
I know, and I apologise.

3491
05:08:27,823 --> 05:08:30,157
Don't keep me long with that, please.

3492
05:08:30,283 --> 05:08:32,827
Please. You must go on.

3493
05:08:44,673 --> 05:08:47,425
I told you,
today it's going to be very hard.

3494
05:09:04,109 --> 05:09:06,193
It was taken in with bags,

3495
05:09:07,112 --> 05:09:09,739
and it was transported to Germany.

3496
05:09:14,995 --> 05:09:16,996
(Murmuring in Yiddish)

3497
05:09:21,585 --> 05:09:23,210
(Yiddish)

3498
05:09:36,641 --> 05:09:38,309
Okay, go ahead.

3499
05:09:41,438 --> 05:09:43,564
Yes, what did he answer...

3500
05:09:45,442 --> 05:09:48,194
...when his wife and sister came?

3501
05:09:51,406 --> 05:09:55,034
They tried to talk to him

3502
05:09:55,160 --> 05:09:57,244
and the husband,

3503
05:09:59,539 --> 05:10:01,957
also from his sister.

3504
05:10:03,168 --> 05:10:05,419
They could not tell them

3505
05:10:05,879 --> 05:10:09,215
that is the last time they stay alive,

3506
05:10:09,341 --> 05:10:13,719
because behind them
was the German Nazis,

3507
05:10:13,845 --> 05:10:15,846
the SS men,

3508
05:10:16,431 --> 05:10:20,518
and they knew,
the minute they will say a word,

3509
05:10:20,644 --> 05:10:25,981
not only the wife and the women,
which they are dead already,

3510
05:10:26,108 --> 05:10:30,444
but also they will share
the same path with them.

3511
05:10:32,239 --> 05:10:36,075
But, in a way,
they tried to do the best for them,

3512
05:10:36,201 --> 05:10:42,665
to stay with them a second longer,
a minute longer,

3513
05:10:42,791 --> 05:10:46,127
just to hug them
and just to kiss them,

3514
05:10:46,253 --> 05:10:52,174
because they knew
they will never see them again.

3515
05:11:36,344 --> 05:11:39,680
(Suchomel) In the "funnel"
the women had to wait.

3516
05:11:41,683 --> 05:11:45,144
They heard the motors
of the gas chamber.

3517
05:11:48,231 --> 05:11:52,610
Maybe they also heard people
screaming and imploring.

3518
05:12:03,455 --> 05:12:07,416
As they waited,
"death-panic" overwhelmed them.

3519
05:12:13,590 --> 05:12:17,801
"Death-panic" makes people let go.

3520
05:12:18,762 --> 05:12:23,140
They empty themselves,
from the front or the rear.

3521
05:12:24,976 --> 05:12:29,939
So often, where the women stood,

3522
05:12:30,065 --> 05:12:35,945
there were 5 or 6 rows of excrement.

3523
05:12:37,489 --> 05:12:38,781
They stood?

3524
05:12:38,907 --> 05:12:43,494
They could squat or do it standing.

3525
05:12:43,620 --> 05:12:45,496
I didn't see them do it.

3526
05:12:45,622 --> 05:12:48,791
I only saw the faeces.

3527
05:12:48,917 --> 05:12:50,709
Only women?

3528
05:12:50,835 --> 05:12:53,712
Not the men, only the women.

3529
05:12:53,838 --> 05:12:56,548
The men were chased
through the "funnel."

3530
05:12:56,675 --> 05:13:00,052
The women had to wait...

3531
05:13:02,722 --> 05:13:04,765
...until a gas chamber was empty.

3532
05:13:04,891 --> 05:13:10,062
- And the men?
- No, they were whipped in first.

3533
05:13:10,188 --> 05:13:12,064
- Ah, yes?
- You understand?

3534
05:13:12,190 --> 05:13:14,149
The men were always first?

3535
05:13:14,276 --> 05:13:17,361
Yes, they always went first.

3536
05:13:17,487 --> 05:13:23,158
- They didn't have to wait.
- They weren't given time to wait, no.

3537
05:13:24,286 --> 05:13:25,744
No?

3538
05:13:27,622 --> 05:13:29,331
And this "death-panic"...

3539
05:13:29,457 --> 05:13:31,542
When this "death-panic" sets in...

3540
05:13:33,795 --> 05:13:35,838
...one lets go.

3541
05:13:35,964 --> 05:13:42,177
It's well-known when someone's terrified
and knows he's about to die.

3542
05:13:42,304 --> 05:13:44,847
It can happen in bed.

3543
05:13:44,973 --> 05:13:48,017
My mother was kneeling by her bed.

3544
05:13:49,477 --> 05:13:52,855
- Your mother?
- Yes. Then there was a big pile.

3545
05:13:52,981 --> 05:13:57,067
- Yes.
- That's a fact.

3546
05:13:57,193 --> 05:14:01,739
It's been medically... proven.

3547
05:14:01,865 --> 05:14:04,742
Since you wanted to know,

3548
05:14:04,868 --> 05:14:08,954
as soon as they were unloaded,

3549
05:14:09,414 --> 05:14:13,917
if they'd been loaded in Warsaw,
or elsewhere,

3550
05:14:14,044 --> 05:14:16,211
they'd already been beaten.

3551
05:14:17,547 --> 05:14:20,674
Beaten hard,
worse than in Treblinka,

3552
05:14:21,343 --> 05:14:24,303
I can assure you.

3553
05:14:25,972 --> 05:14:28,640
Then during the train journey,

3554
05:14:28,767 --> 05:14:30,851
standing in cars,

3555
05:14:30,977 --> 05:14:33,228
no toilets,

3556
05:14:33,355 --> 05:14:35,773
nothing, hardly any water.

3557
05:14:36,941 --> 05:14:38,317
Fear.

3558
05:14:38,443 --> 05:14:42,321
Then the doors opened
and it started again,

3559
05:14:43,323 --> 05:14:46,950
"Bremze, bremze!"

3560
05:14:47,619 --> 05:14:51,246
"Szybciej, szybciej!"

3561
05:14:51,373 --> 05:14:56,293
I can't pronounce it,
I have false teeth.

3562
05:14:56,419 --> 05:15:00,255
It's Polish.
"Bremze" or "szybciej."

3563
05:15:00,382 --> 05:15:02,049
What does 'bremze" mean?

3564
05:15:02,175 --> 05:15:06,261
It's a Ukrainian word.
It means "faster."

3565
05:15:06,388 --> 05:15:11,683
Again the chase...
a hail of whiplashes.

3566
05:15:11,810 --> 05:15:14,186
The SS man Kuttner's whip
was this long.

3567
05:15:14,646 --> 05:15:17,564
Women to the left, men to the right.

3568
05:15:18,691 --> 05:15:21,568
And always more blows.

3569
05:15:22,028 --> 05:15:23,612
No respite?

3570
05:15:23,738 --> 05:15:25,239
None.

3571
05:15:25,365 --> 05:15:30,077
Go in there, strip. Hurry, hurry!

3572
05:15:30,203 --> 05:15:33,914
- Always running.
- Always running.

3573
05:15:35,417 --> 05:15:36,667
Running and screaming.

3574
05:15:36,793 --> 05:15:40,254
That's how they were finished off.

3575
05:15:40,380 --> 05:15:43,465
- That was the technique?
- Yes, the technique.

3576
05:15:45,802 --> 05:15:50,597
You must remember, it had to go fast.

3577
05:15:51,891 --> 05:15:56,353
And the Blue Squad also had the task

3578
05:15:57,689 --> 05:16:00,691
of leading the sick and the aged...

3579
05:16:01,943 --> 05:16:04,236
...to the "Infirmary,"

3580
05:16:05,864 --> 05:16:10,659
so as not to delay the flow
of the people to the gas chambers.

3581
05:16:10,785 --> 05:16:14,830
Old people would have slowed it down.

3582
05:16:17,917 --> 05:16:21,295
Assignment to the "Infirmary"

3583
05:16:21,921 --> 05:16:25,257
was decided by Germans.

3584
05:16:26,926 --> 05:16:30,179
- The Jews of the Blue Squad...
- Yes.

3585
05:16:30,305 --> 05:16:34,933
Only implemented the decision,

3586
05:16:35,059 --> 05:16:38,520
leading the people there,

3587
05:16:38,646 --> 05:16:43,233
or carrying them on stretchers.

3588
05:16:45,862 --> 05:16:49,406
Old women, sick children,

3589
05:16:49,532 --> 05:16:52,201
children whose mother was sick,

3590
05:16:53,286 --> 05:16:55,829
or whose grandmother was very old,

3591
05:16:56,289 --> 05:16:59,583
were sent along with the grandma

3592
05:16:59,709 --> 05:17:03,545
because she didn't know
about the "Infirmary."

3593
05:17:04,464 --> 05:17:08,842
It had a white flag with a red cross.

3594
05:17:11,804 --> 05:17:14,056
A passage led to it.

3595
05:17:14,766 --> 05:17:18,101
Until they reached the end,
they saw nothing.

3596
05:17:20,480 --> 05:17:23,398
Then they'd see the dead in the pit.

3597
05:17:27,570 --> 05:17:31,323
They were forced to strip,

3598
05:17:33,493 --> 05:17:36,495
to sit on a sandbank,

3599
05:17:38,081 --> 05:17:41,166
and were killed with a shot in the neck.

3600
05:17:41,793 --> 05:17:45,170
They fell into the pit.

3601
05:17:49,592 --> 05:17:53,345
There was always a fire in the pit.

3602
05:17:54,764 --> 05:17:59,768
With rubbish, paper and gasoline,

3603
05:18:03,231 --> 05:18:06,149
people burn very well.

3604
05:18:08,570 --> 05:18:12,155
RICHARD GLAZAR
SWITZERLAND

3605
05:18:16,452 --> 05:18:19,746
(In German)
The "Infirmary" was a narrow site

3606
05:18:20,331 --> 05:18:24,001
very close to the ramp

3607
05:18:26,045 --> 05:18:30,424
to which the aged were led.

3608
05:18:30,925 --> 05:18:33,594
I had to do this too.

3609
05:18:39,183 --> 05:18:44,229
This execution site wasn't covered,

3610
05:18:44,897 --> 05:18:48,025
just an open place with a roof,

3611
05:18:48,151 --> 05:18:50,986
but screened by a fence,

3612
05:18:51,112 --> 05:18:53,947
so no one could see in.

3613
05:18:58,703 --> 05:19:03,999
The way in was a narrow passage,

3614
05:19:06,044 --> 05:19:12,883
very short, but somewhat similar
to the "funnel."

3615
05:19:13,009 --> 05:19:16,428
Yes, a sort of tiny labyrinth.

3616
05:19:18,806 --> 05:19:21,975
In the middle of it, there was a pit.

3617
05:19:24,270 --> 05:19:28,732
And to the left as one came in,

3618
05:19:28,858 --> 05:19:31,360
there was a little booth,

3619
05:19:31,486 --> 05:19:36,490
with a kind of wooden plank in it,

3620
05:19:36,616 --> 05:19:39,076
like a springboard.

3621
05:19:39,994 --> 05:19:45,332
If people were too weak to stand on it,

3622
05:19:45,458 --> 05:19:50,295
they'd have to sit on it,

3623
05:19:51,464 --> 05:19:53,382
and then,

3624
05:19:53,508 --> 05:20:00,681
as the saying went
in Treblinka jargon...

3625
05:20:06,104 --> 05:20:10,232
...SS man Miete would

3626
05:20:11,317 --> 05:20:16,071
"cure each one with a single pill",

3627
05:20:18,074 --> 05:20:20,367
a shot in the neck.

3628
05:20:25,081 --> 05:20:28,625
In the peak periods,

3629
05:20:29,210 --> 05:20:30,794
that happened daily.

3630
05:20:30,920 --> 05:20:36,591
In those days, the pit...

3631
05:20:37,218 --> 05:20:39,177
it was at least

3632
05:20:40,805 --> 05:20:44,516
10 to 12 feet deep,

3633
05:20:44,642 --> 05:20:46,935
it was full of corpses.

3634
05:20:56,279 --> 05:21:00,532
There were also cases

3635
05:21:00,658 --> 05:21:06,913
of children who for some reason
arrived alone

3636
05:21:07,039 --> 05:21:11,752
or got separated from their parents.

3637
05:21:11,878 --> 05:21:15,422
These children were led
to the "Infirmary"

3638
05:21:15,965 --> 05:21:18,175
and shot there.

3639
05:21:27,143 --> 05:21:31,229
The "Infirmary" was also for us,

3640
05:21:31,355 --> 05:21:33,815
the Treblinka slaves,

3641
05:21:34,859 --> 05:21:37,027
the last stop.

3642
05:21:38,154 --> 05:21:40,405
Not the gas chamber.

3643
05:21:41,783 --> 05:21:46,203
We always ended up in the "Infirmary."

3644
05:21:54,921 --> 05:21:59,341
AUSCHWITZ TODAY
THE SORTING STATION

3645
05:22:13,064 --> 05:22:15,565
(Vrba) There was always
an amount of people

3646
05:22:15,691 --> 05:22:18,068
who could not get out from the wagons.

3647
05:22:19,403 --> 05:22:21,905
There were those who died on the road,

3648
05:22:23,574 --> 05:22:27,202
or people who were sick to such a degree

3649
05:22:27,745 --> 05:22:32,582
that even a persuasion
with violent beating

3650
05:22:33,167 --> 05:22:35,544
wouldn't get them moving fast enough.

3651
05:22:36,921 --> 05:22:39,339
So those people remained in the wagons.

3652
05:22:39,924 --> 05:22:42,926
RUDOLF VRBA
SURVIVOR OF AUSCHWITZ

3653
05:22:45,179 --> 05:22:48,557
So our first job was
to get into the wagons

3654
05:22:48,683 --> 05:22:51,560
to get out the dead bodies
or the dying

3655
05:22:52,103 --> 05:22:58,608
and transport them "im Laufs Chritt",
as the Germans like to say.

3656
05:22:58,734 --> 05:23:00,318
This means "running."

3657
05:23:00,444 --> 05:23:03,113
Laufs chritt, yeah.
Never, never walking, or something.

3658
05:23:03,239 --> 05:23:05,073
Everything had to be done
im Laufs chritt.

3659
05:23:05,199 --> 05:23:07,158
- Immer laufen?
- Lmmer laufen.

3660
05:23:07,827 --> 05:23:12,914
So... Very sporty,
they are a sporty nation, you see?

3661
05:23:13,040 --> 05:23:16,501
And, er... we had to get out
those bodies

3662
05:23:16,627 --> 05:23:21,631
and, on the ramp, running,
to get them on a truck,

3663
05:23:21,757 --> 05:23:23,717
which was at the head of the ramp.

3664
05:23:23,843 --> 05:23:27,512
There were already trucks prepared.
Trucks were ready.

3665
05:23:28,180 --> 05:23:33,143
Say, the trucks were five, six sometimes
standing there, sometimes more.

3666
05:23:33,269 --> 05:23:34,728
There was no iron rule.

3667
05:23:34,854 --> 05:23:37,731
But the first truck was
for the dead and the dying.

3668
05:23:43,070 --> 05:23:45,280
There was not much, er...

3669
05:23:45,406 --> 05:23:50,243
medical care taken to establish
who is dead and who feigns to be dead.

3670
05:23:50,369 --> 05:23:52,954
I mean, you know,
who is only simulating.

3671
05:23:53,080 --> 05:23:55,707
So they were put on the truck,
and these trucks went to...

3672
05:23:55,833 --> 05:23:59,961
Then, once this was finished, then
this was the first truck which move off,

3673
05:24:00,087 --> 05:24:01,687
and it went straight to the crematorium,

3674
05:24:01,714 --> 05:24:06,343
which was about two kilometres
to the left from the ramp.

3675
05:24:06,469 --> 05:24:10,013
At the time, it was two kilometres.
It was before the construction of...

3676
05:24:10,139 --> 05:24:12,140
Before the construction
of the new ramp.

3677
05:24:13,476 --> 05:24:16,686
THE OLD RAMP

3678
05:24:16,812 --> 05:24:18,939
(Vrba) This was the old ramp.

3679
05:24:21,817 --> 05:24:23,735
Through that old ramp,

3680
05:24:24,278 --> 05:24:28,198
the first one and three-quarters
of a million people went.

3681
05:24:28,824 --> 05:24:30,659
Through that old ramp.

3682
05:24:31,494 --> 05:24:33,453
I mean the majority.

3683
05:24:39,168 --> 05:24:41,378
The new ramp was only built

3684
05:24:41,504 --> 05:24:43,713
for the expected murder,

3685
05:24:43,839 --> 05:24:46,007
in a very short time,

3686
05:24:46,133 --> 05:24:48,093
of one million Jews from Hungary.

3687
05:24:51,389 --> 05:24:55,976
THE NEW RAMP
BUILT IN EARLY 1944

3688
05:24:59,647 --> 05:25:02,565
(Vrba) The whole murder machinery
could work

3689
05:25:03,067 --> 05:25:04,985
only on one principle:

3690
05:25:05,736 --> 05:25:07,278
that the people came to Auschwitz

3691
05:25:07,405 --> 05:25:11,032
and didn't know where they were going
and for what purpose.

3692
05:25:13,703 --> 05:25:16,746
The new arrivals were supposed
to be kept without panic

3693
05:25:16,872 --> 05:25:19,749
and orderly marching
into the gas chamber.

3694
05:25:22,712 --> 05:25:26,715
Especially, the panic was dangerous
from women with small children.

3695
05:25:28,676 --> 05:25:32,679
So, it was important for the Nazis

3696
05:25:33,180 --> 05:25:36,391
that none of us give
some sort of a message

3697
05:25:36,517 --> 05:25:39,894
which could cause a panic
even in the last moment.

3698
05:25:41,355 --> 05:25:45,984
And anybody who tried
to get in touch with newcomers

3699
05:25:46,110 --> 05:25:48,778
was either clubbed to death

3700
05:25:49,864 --> 05:25:52,741
or taken behind the wagon and shot.

3701
05:25:55,786 --> 05:25:59,330
Because, if a panic
would have broken out,

3702
05:25:59,457 --> 05:26:04,419
and a massacre would have taken
place on the spot, on the ramp,

3703
05:26:04,879 --> 05:26:08,548
it would already be
a hitch in the machinery.

3704
05:26:09,592 --> 05:26:14,929
You can't bring in the next transport
with dead bodies and blood around,

3705
05:26:15,514 --> 05:26:17,974
because this will only
increase the panic.

3706
05:26:18,768 --> 05:26:20,852
The Nazis were concentrated
upon one thing:

3707
05:26:20,978 --> 05:26:24,189
it should go in an orderly fashion,

3708
05:26:24,315 --> 05:26:26,524
so that it goes unimpeded.

3709
05:26:26,650 --> 05:26:28,985
One doesn't lose time.

3710
05:26:46,545 --> 05:26:48,671
(Muller, in German)
Before each gassing operation,

3711
05:26:48,798 --> 05:26:53,051
the SS took stern precautions.

3712
05:26:56,722 --> 05:27:00,892
The crematorium was
surrounded by SS men.

3713
05:27:03,604 --> 05:27:08,483
Many SS men patrolled the court

3714
05:27:09,652 --> 05:27:14,364
with dogs and machine-guns.

3715
05:27:19,578 --> 05:27:24,874
To the right were the steps

3716
05:27:26,460 --> 05:27:30,505
that led underground
to the "undressing room."

3717
05:27:47,815 --> 05:27:52,152
In Birkenau,
there were 4 crematoria,

3718
05:27:56,740 --> 05:28:01,452
Crematoria II, III and IV, V.

3719
05:28:05,541 --> 05:28:09,961
Crematorium II was similar to III.

3720
05:28:17,761 --> 05:28:19,888
In Crematoria II and III,

3721
05:28:20,014 --> 05:28:24,767
the "undressing room" and
the gas chambers were underground.

3722
05:28:29,106 --> 05:28:31,774
A large "undressing room"

3723
05:28:33,611 --> 05:28:37,030
of about 3000 square feet

3724
05:28:59,011 --> 05:29:01,387
and a large gas chamber...

3725
05:29:05,100 --> 05:29:07,352
...where one could...

3726
05:29:09,480 --> 05:29:15,818
...gas up to 3000 people at a time.

3727
05:29:27,665 --> 05:29:35,665
Crematoria IV and V
were of a different type

3728
05:29:40,344 --> 05:29:44,264
in that they weren't located underground.

3729
05:29:45,349 --> 05:29:48,142
Everything was at ground level.

3730
05:29:49,895 --> 05:29:53,481
In IV and V,
there were 3 gas chambers

3731
05:29:53,607 --> 05:29:55,608
with a total capacity

3732
05:29:55,734 --> 05:30:00,446
of at most 1800 to 2000 people
at a time.

3733
05:30:02,616 --> 05:30:06,953
AUSCHWITZ MUSEUM
MODEL OF CREMATORIA II AND III

3734
05:30:07,079 --> 05:30:11,457
ELEVATORS HOISTED BODIES
TO THE OVENS

3735
05:30:19,425 --> 05:30:23,803
Crematoria II and III
had 15 ovens each.

3736
05:30:25,306 --> 05:30:28,850
Crematoria IV and V had
8 ovens each.

3737
05:30:41,655 --> 05:30:44,949
As people reached the crematorium,

3738
05:30:45,075 --> 05:30:47,702
they saw everything...

3739
05:30:48,162 --> 05:30:50,997
this horribly violent scene.

3740
05:30:52,624 --> 05:30:57,045
The whole area was ringed
with SS men.

3741
05:30:57,629 --> 05:30:59,964
Dogs barked.

3742
05:31:00,090 --> 05:31:02,467
Machine-guns.

3743
05:31:05,471 --> 05:31:10,933
They all, mainly the Polish Jews,
had misgivings.

3744
05:31:12,686 --> 05:31:18,399
They knew something
was seriously amiss.

3745
05:31:22,321 --> 05:31:29,243
But none of them had
the faintest of notions

3746
05:31:29,370 --> 05:31:33,373
that in 3 or 4 hours
they'd be reduced to ashes.

3747
05:31:40,422 --> 05:31:43,424
When they reached
the "undressing room,"

3748
05:31:44,009 --> 05:31:46,094
they saw

3749
05:31:46,762 --> 05:31:53,476
that it looked like
an International Information Centre!

3750
05:32:11,120 --> 05:32:15,498
On the walls were...

3751
05:32:18,085 --> 05:32:19,627
...hooks.

3752
05:32:23,215 --> 05:32:26,050
And each hook had a number.

3753
05:32:28,637 --> 05:32:31,931
Beneath the hooks were...

3754
05:32:33,892 --> 05:32:36,561
...wooden benches.

3755
05:32:36,687 --> 05:32:42,442
So people could undress
"more comfortably," it was said.

3756
05:32:45,446 --> 05:32:49,240
And on the numerous pillars

3757
05:32:50,701 --> 05:32:54,829
that held up this underground
"undressing room,"

3758
05:32:55,747 --> 05:32:58,332
there were signs with slogans

3759
05:32:59,376 --> 05:33:02,170
in several languages:

3760
05:33:05,299 --> 05:33:07,675
"Clean is good!"

3761
05:33:10,179 --> 05:33:12,680
"Lice can kill!"

3762
05:33:14,266 --> 05:33:16,267
"Wash yourself!"

3763
05:33:18,520 --> 05:33:21,355
"To the disinfection area."

3764
05:33:26,487 --> 05:33:29,405
All those signs

3765
05:33:30,157 --> 05:33:32,909
were only there

3766
05:33:34,328 --> 05:33:39,332
to lure people into the gas chambers
already undressed.

3767
05:34:01,021 --> 05:34:04,357
And to the left,

3768
05:34:05,067 --> 05:34:09,820
at a right-angle,
was the gas chamber...

3769
05:34:14,660 --> 05:34:19,997
...with its massive door.

3770
05:34:39,560 --> 05:34:43,980
CREMATORIUM III:
THE UNDRESSING ROOM

3771
05:35:17,306 --> 05:35:21,726
THE GAS CHAMBER

3772
05:35:35,073 --> 05:35:42,330
In Crematoria II and III,
Zyklon gas crystals were poured in

3773
05:35:43,123 --> 05:35:46,292
by a so-called
"SS disinfection squad,"

3774
05:35:47,127 --> 05:35:49,503
through the ceiling,

3775
05:35:58,180 --> 05:36:04,143
and in Crematoria IV and V
through side openings.

3776
05:36:09,733 --> 05:36:13,736
With 5 or 6 canisters of gas,

3777
05:36:15,447 --> 05:36:18,407
they could kill around 2000 people.

3778
05:36:27,167 --> 05:36:30,378
This so-called "disinfection squad"

3779
05:36:31,963 --> 05:36:36,258
arrived in a truck
marked with a red cross

3780
05:36:38,428 --> 05:36:41,764
and escorted people along

3781
05:36:42,599 --> 05:36:49,271
to make them believe
they were being led to take a bath.

3782
05:36:52,484 --> 05:36:56,821
But the red cross was only a mark

3783
05:36:57,280 --> 05:37:01,826
to hide the canisters of Zyklon gas
and the hammers to open them.

3784
05:37:08,333 --> 05:37:14,714
The gas took about
10 to 15 minutes to kill.

3785
05:37:23,765 --> 05:37:26,308
The most horrible thing was,

3786
05:37:28,186 --> 05:37:31,188
once the doors of the gas chambers
were opened,

3787
05:37:31,857 --> 05:37:37,027
the unbearable sight.

3788
05:37:41,992 --> 05:37:46,370
People were packed together like basalt,

3789
05:37:48,123 --> 05:37:50,374
like blocks of stone.

3790
05:37:53,754 --> 05:37:58,132
How they tumbled
out of the gas chamber!

3791
05:38:02,387 --> 05:38:04,805
I saw that several times.

3792
05:38:07,184 --> 05:38:11,437
That was the toughest thing to take.

3793
05:38:13,023 --> 05:38:16,692
You could never get used to that.

3794
05:38:19,196 --> 05:38:21,572
It was impossible.

3795
05:38:21,698 --> 05:38:25,326
CREMATORIUM IV

3796
05:38:28,330 --> 05:38:29,914
(Lanzmann) Impossible...

3797
05:38:31,374 --> 05:38:32,458
Yes.

3798
05:38:32,584 --> 05:38:38,547
You see, once the gas was poured in,
it worked like this:

3799
05:38:38,673 --> 05:38:42,259
it rose from the ground upwards.

3800
05:38:42,844 --> 05:38:47,223
And in the terrible struggle
that followed,

3801
05:38:47,724 --> 05:38:53,145
because it was a struggle,

3802
05:38:54,231 --> 05:38:58,442
the lights were switched off
in the gas chambers.

3803
05:38:59,236 --> 05:39:02,488
It was dark, no one could see.

3804
05:39:02,614 --> 05:39:08,244
So the strongest people
tried to climb higher.

3805
05:39:08,370 --> 05:39:11,121
Because they probably realised

3806
05:39:11,748 --> 05:39:14,625
that the higher they got,

3807
05:39:14,751 --> 05:39:17,962
the more air there was.

3808
05:39:18,088 --> 05:39:20,840
They could breathe better.

3809
05:39:20,966 --> 05:39:24,635
Yes? That caused the struggle.

3810
05:39:24,761 --> 05:39:29,098
Secondly, most people tried
to push their way to the door.

3811
05:39:29,724 --> 05:39:31,392
It was psychological.

3812
05:39:31,518 --> 05:39:33,477
They knew where the door was,

3813
05:39:33,603 --> 05:39:36,146
so maybe they could force their way.

3814
05:39:36,273 --> 05:39:38,357
It was instinctive,

3815
05:39:38,483 --> 05:39:44,280
a death struggle.

3816
05:39:44,406 --> 05:39:47,449
Which is why children

3817
05:39:47,576 --> 05:39:50,202
and weaker people and the aged

3818
05:39:50,328 --> 05:39:52,162
always wound up at the bottom.

3819
05:39:52,289 --> 05:39:55,332
The strongest were on top.

3820
05:39:56,459 --> 05:40:02,590
Because in the death struggle...

3821
05:40:04,259 --> 05:40:09,179
...a father didn't realise his son lay...

3822
05:40:11,016 --> 05:40:12,600
...beneath him.

3823
05:40:13,268 --> 05:40:16,020
And when the doors were opened?

3824
05:40:16,146 --> 05:40:18,147
They fell out.

3825
05:40:18,273 --> 05:40:21,859
People fell out like blocks of stone,

3826
05:40:21,985 --> 05:40:25,863
like rocks falling out of a truck.

3827
05:40:26,573 --> 05:40:30,367
But near the Zyklon gas,
there was a void.

3828
05:40:30,493 --> 05:40:34,747
There was no one
where the gas crystals went in.

3829
05:40:34,873 --> 05:40:37,291
An empty space.

3830
05:40:37,417 --> 05:40:42,588
Probably the victims realised that...

3831
05:40:44,257 --> 05:40:48,469
...the gas worked strongest there.

3832
05:40:53,683 --> 05:40:55,309
And the people were...?

3833
05:40:55,435 --> 05:40:59,313
The people were battered.

3834
05:41:00,482 --> 05:41:07,988
They struggled and fought
in the darkness.

3835
05:41:09,950 --> 05:41:13,160
They were covered in excrement...

3836
05:41:15,330 --> 05:41:16,830
...in blood,

3837
05:41:18,792 --> 05:41:21,168
from ears and noses.

3838
05:41:25,173 --> 05:41:28,550
One also sometimes saw

3839
05:41:28,677 --> 05:41:32,262
that the people lying on the ground,

3840
05:41:32,389 --> 05:41:37,351
because of the pressure of the others,

3841
05:41:37,477 --> 05:41:42,982
were unrecognisable.

3842
05:41:43,108 --> 05:41:47,569
Children had their skulls crushed.

3843
05:41:49,864 --> 05:41:51,615
- Yes.
- What?

3844
05:41:52,826 --> 05:41:54,284
It was awful.

3845
05:41:54,411 --> 05:41:59,456
People had... vomited.

3846
05:42:01,418 --> 05:42:05,546
Blood from the ears and noses.

3847
05:42:05,672 --> 05:42:10,050
Probably even menstrual fluid...
sure of it.

3848
05:42:10,593 --> 05:42:13,804
There was everything
in that struggle for life,

3849
05:42:13,930 --> 05:42:15,931
that death struggle.

3850
05:42:16,891 --> 05:42:20,978
It was terrible to see.
That was the toughest part.

3851
05:42:22,731 --> 05:42:25,941
FILIP MULLER
CZECH JEW

3852
05:42:26,067 --> 05:42:32,614
SURVIVOR OF FIVE LIQUIDATIONS
OF AUSCHWITZ "SPECIAL DETAIL"

3853
05:43:01,686 --> 05:43:05,355
(Muller) It was pointless

3854
05:43:05,482 --> 05:43:08,817
to tell the truth to anyone

3855
05:43:09,944 --> 05:43:14,823
who crossed the threshold
of the crematorium.

3856
05:43:18,953 --> 05:43:22,331
You couldn't save anyone there.

3857
05:43:24,417 --> 05:43:28,212
It was impossible to save people.

3858
05:43:38,640 --> 05:43:40,724
One day, in 1943,

3859
05:43:40,850 --> 05:43:45,270
when I was already in Crematorium V,

3860
05:43:47,649 --> 05:43:50,734
a train from Bialystok arrived.

3861
05:43:53,905 --> 05:43:57,449
A prisoner on the "special detail"

3862
05:43:57,575 --> 05:44:02,412
saw a woman
in the "undressing room,"

3863
05:44:04,249 --> 05:44:07,084
who was the wife of a friend of his.

3864
05:44:11,256 --> 05:44:14,258
He came right out and told her,

3865
05:44:15,260 --> 05:44:17,427
"You are going to be exterminated.

3866
05:44:18,763 --> 05:44:21,765
"In 3 hours, you'll be ashes."

3867
05:44:30,316 --> 05:44:34,653
The woman believed him
because she knew him.

3868
05:44:41,494 --> 05:44:44,371
She ran all over

3869
05:44:44,497 --> 05:44:47,332
and warned the other women.

3870
05:44:49,294 --> 05:44:51,795
"We're going to be killed.

3871
05:44:52,463 --> 05:44:54,840
"We're going to be gassed."

3872
05:44:57,844 --> 05:45:02,848
Mothers carrying their children
on their shoulders

3873
05:45:02,974 --> 05:45:05,184
didn't want to hear that.

3874
05:45:06,102 --> 05:45:08,896
They decided the woman was crazy.

3875
05:45:11,316 --> 05:45:13,775
They chased her away.

3876
05:45:17,906 --> 05:45:20,574
So she went to the men.

3877
05:45:22,243 --> 05:45:24,578
To no avail.

3878
05:45:26,080 --> 05:45:28,081
Not that they didn't believe her.

3879
05:45:28,208 --> 05:45:31,627
They'd heard rumours
in the Bialystok ghetto,

3880
05:45:31,753 --> 05:45:33,545
or in Grodno, and elsewhere.

3881
05:45:34,505 --> 05:45:37,591
But who wanted to hear that?

3882
05:45:44,098 --> 05:45:47,935
When she saw that no one would listen,

3883
05:45:48,603 --> 05:45:52,147
she scratched her whole face.

3884
05:45:53,399 --> 05:45:56,193
Out of despair, in shock.

3885
05:45:56,319 --> 05:45:59,071
And she started to scream.

3886
05:46:03,826 --> 05:46:05,953
So what happened?

3887
05:46:06,079 --> 05:46:10,082
Everyone was gassed,
but the woman was held back.

3888
05:46:12,627 --> 05:46:17,005
We had to line up
in front of the oven.

3889
05:46:18,925 --> 05:46:22,886
First, they tortured her horribly,

3890
05:46:23,012 --> 05:46:25,347
because she wouldn't betray him.

3891
05:46:28,059 --> 05:46:32,312
In the end, she pointed to him.

3892
05:46:35,483 --> 05:46:40,821
He was taken out of the line
and thrown alive into the oven.

3893
05:46:42,156 --> 05:46:46,493
We were told, "Whoever says anything
will end like that!"

3894
05:46:52,333 --> 05:46:56,837
We, in the "special detail,"
kept trying to figure out

3895
05:46:57,422 --> 05:47:00,924
if there was a way

3896
05:47:01,050 --> 05:47:05,220
we could tell people

3897
05:47:06,347 --> 05:47:09,599
to inform them.

3898
05:47:10,852 --> 05:47:14,771
But our experience,

3899
05:47:14,897 --> 05:47:19,401
in several instances
where we were able to tell people,

3900
05:47:20,236 --> 05:47:23,030
showed that it was of no use.

3901
05:47:23,156 --> 05:47:27,784
That it made their last moments
even harder to bear.

3902
05:47:27,910 --> 05:47:32,372
At most, we thought it might help

3903
05:47:32,498 --> 05:47:36,335
the Jews from Poland,

3904
05:47:36,461 --> 05:47:40,881
or Jews from There sienstadt,
the Czech family camp,

3905
05:47:41,007 --> 05:47:45,302
who'd already spent
6 months in Birkenau.

3906
05:47:45,428 --> 05:47:49,139
We thought it might have been
of use in such cases

3907
05:47:49,265 --> 05:47:51,558
to tell people.

3908
05:47:51,684 --> 05:47:55,729
But imagine what it was like
in other cases,

3909
05:47:56,314 --> 05:48:00,859
Jews from Greece,
from Hungary, from Corfu,

3910
05:48:00,985 --> 05:48:05,030
who'd been travelling
for 10 or 12 days,

3911
05:48:05,156 --> 05:48:06,740
starving,

3912
05:48:07,492 --> 05:48:11,745
without water for days,
dying of thirst,

3913
05:48:11,871 --> 05:48:14,956
they were half-crazed
when they arrived.

3914
05:48:15,083 --> 05:48:17,376
They were dealt with differently.

3915
05:48:17,502 --> 05:48:20,003
They were only told,

3916
05:48:20,129 --> 05:48:25,675
"Get undressed,
you'll soon get a mug of tea."

3917
05:48:27,345 --> 05:48:30,430
These people were in such a state

3918
05:48:30,556 --> 05:48:35,977
because they'd been travelling so long,

3919
05:48:36,104 --> 05:48:40,273
that their only thought

3920
05:48:40,817 --> 05:48:44,277
was to quench their thirst.

3921
05:48:44,404 --> 05:48:47,656
And the SS executioners
knew that very well.

3922
05:48:47,782 --> 05:48:52,035
It was all preprogrammed,

3923
05:48:54,747 --> 05:48:58,792
a calculated part
of the extermination process

3924
05:48:58,918 --> 05:49:01,753
that if people were so weak

3925
05:49:01,879 --> 05:49:04,339
and weren't given something to drink,

3926
05:49:04,465 --> 05:49:07,884
they'd rush into the gas chamber.

3927
05:49:08,010 --> 05:49:11,263
But in fact,

3928
05:49:11,389 --> 05:49:17,602
all these people were already
being exterminated

3929
05:49:17,728 --> 05:49:19,438
before reaching the gas chambers.

3930
05:49:19,564 --> 05:49:22,023
Think of the children.

3931
05:49:22,150 --> 05:49:25,360
They begged their mothers,
screaming,

3932
05:49:25,486 --> 05:49:28,447
"Mother, please, water, water!"

3933
05:49:29,407 --> 05:49:33,994
The adults, too,
who'd spent days without water,

3934
05:49:34,120 --> 05:49:36,830
had the same obsession.

3935
05:49:36,956 --> 05:49:40,625
Informing those people
was quite pointless.

3936
05:49:50,011 --> 05:49:54,097
CORFU

3937
05:50:05,401 --> 05:50:07,402
(Bellsjingling)

3938
05:50:43,564 --> 05:50:45,398
(Metal banging)

3939
05:50:47,777 --> 05:50:49,611
(Banging intensifies)

3940
05:52:03,269 --> 05:52:05,645
(People chat in Greek)

3941
05:52:09,567 --> 05:52:11,610
(Metal banging)

3942
05:52:23,414 --> 05:52:26,249
- Grab it from there.
- Yes, grab it from there.

3943
05:52:26,375 --> 05:52:27,917
- Put it right there.
- Okay.

3944
05:52:28,044 --> 05:52:29,753
- Right there.
- Okay, yes.

3945
05:52:29,879 --> 05:52:32,297
Okay, be careful. Wait.

3946
05:52:32,423 --> 05:52:35,091
- You'll come and pick it up later?
- Yes.

3947
05:52:35,217 --> 05:52:37,177
- Put it down.
- In a second.

3948
05:52:37,303 --> 05:52:39,679
Hold on a second.

3949
05:52:39,805 --> 05:52:41,598
Just hold on a second.

3950
05:52:42,183 --> 05:52:44,476
Maybe if you removed this?

3951
05:52:44,602 --> 05:52:47,437
Got it? That's how you'll load it.

3952
05:52:47,563 --> 05:52:49,773
Come and pick it up next week.

3953
05:52:49,899 --> 05:52:52,359
Understood?
Now move the cart away from here.

3954
05:52:52,485 --> 05:52:54,152
Move the cart.

3955
05:52:54,278 --> 05:52:56,946
Yes, let's make some space.

3956
05:52:57,073 --> 05:52:59,157
(Man) So you're an actor now!

3957
05:53:01,869 --> 05:53:03,244
Let's finish this.

3958
05:53:33,734 --> 05:53:37,779
MOSHE MORDO

3959
05:53:57,842 --> 05:54:00,093
(Man, in Italian)
These are my nephews.

3960
05:54:00,219 --> 05:54:03,263
They burned them in Birkenau.

3961
05:54:06,475 --> 05:54:09,352
Two of my brother's kids.

3962
05:54:09,478 --> 05:54:13,022
They took them
to the crematorium with their mum.

3963
05:54:13,649 --> 05:54:16,192
They were all burned in Birkenau.

3964
05:54:27,371 --> 05:54:30,915
- My brother.
- (Lanzmann) Yes?

3965
05:54:31,041 --> 05:54:33,918
He was sick,

3966
05:54:34,044 --> 05:54:39,174
and they put him in the oven,
in the crematorium, and burned him.

3967
05:54:40,718 --> 05:54:43,136
That was at Birkenau.

3968
05:54:47,600 --> 05:54:51,186
(Mordo, In Italian)
The oldest boy was 17,

3969
05:54:52,146 --> 05:54:54,564
the second was 15.

3970
05:54:55,983 --> 05:54:59,402
Two more kids "kaput" with their mum.

3971
05:55:02,406 --> 05:55:05,116
Yes, 4 children I lost.

3972
05:55:07,119 --> 05:55:09,954
- (Woman) Your brother?
- No.

3973
05:55:10,080 --> 05:55:12,081
(Women chat in Greek)

3974
05:55:14,376 --> 05:55:16,628
(Lanzmann, In Italian)
Your father too?

3975
05:55:18,130 --> 05:55:20,298
My dad, him too.

3976
05:55:20,841 --> 05:55:28,723
- (Lanzmann) How old was your father?
- Dad was 85 years old.

3977
05:55:29,225 --> 05:55:32,143
- 85 years old and died in Auschwitz?
- Yes.

3978
05:55:32,269 --> 05:55:34,729
Auschwitz, that's right.

3979
05:55:36,398 --> 05:55:40,527
85 and he died at Birkenau.

3980
05:55:41,737 --> 05:55:43,613
My father.

3981
05:55:43,739 --> 05:55:46,115
- Your father made the whole trip?
- Yes.

3982
05:55:55,000 --> 05:55:56,918
(Mordo) The whole family died.

3983
05:55:57,044 --> 05:56:00,380
First the gas chamber,
then the crematorium.

3984
05:56:07,888 --> 05:56:10,682
(♪ Man sings in Hebrew)

3985
05:56:25,489 --> 05:56:28,199
(♪ Mordo sings in Hebrew)

3986
05:57:49,198 --> 05:57:51,199
(♪Singing ends)

3987
05:58:12,471 --> 05:58:16,432
(In French)
On Friday morning, June 9, 1944,

3988
05:58:16,558 --> 05:58:22,105
members of the Corfu Jewish
community came, very frightened,

3989
05:58:22,231 --> 05:58:24,899
and reported to the Germans.

3990
05:58:25,025 --> 05:58:30,113
This square was full
of Gestapo men and police,

3991
05:58:30,239 --> 05:58:32,240
and we went forward.

3992
05:58:32,366 --> 05:58:36,327
There were even traitors,
the Recanati brothers, Athens Jews.

3993
05:58:36,453 --> 05:58:41,749
After the war they were sentenced
to life imprisonment.

3994
05:58:41,875 --> 05:58:45,503
But they're already free.

3995
05:58:50,259 --> 05:58:53,886
We were ordered to go forward.

3996
05:58:54,013 --> 05:58:57,390
- (Lanzmann) By the street?
- Yes, by this street.

3997
05:58:57,516 --> 05:59:02,270
- How many of you were there?
- Exactly 1,650.

3998
05:59:02,396 --> 05:59:04,397
(Speaking Greek)

3999
05:59:06,734 --> 05:59:09,610
- Quite a crowd?
- A lot of people.

4000
05:59:09,737 --> 05:59:12,697
Christians stopped there.

4001
05:59:13,323 --> 05:59:15,033
Christians, that's right.
And they saw.

4002
05:59:15,159 --> 05:59:17,118
- Where were the Christians?
- There.

4003
05:59:18,829 --> 05:59:21,164
- At the street corner?
- Yes.

4004
05:59:21,707 --> 05:59:23,207
And on the balconies.

4005
05:59:24,460 --> 05:59:26,919
After we gathered here,

4006
05:59:27,046 --> 05:59:31,007
Gestapo men with machine-guns
came up behind us.

4007
05:59:32,259 --> 05:59:33,885
What time was it?

4008
05:59:34,595 --> 05:59:36,929
- It was 6:00am.
- In the morning.

4009
05:59:37,056 --> 05:59:39,390
- A fine day?
- Yes, the day was fine.

4010
05:59:41,393 --> 05:59:43,061
6:00 in the morning.

4011
05:59:43,645 --> 05:59:45,813
1,600. That's a lot of people
in the street.

4012
05:59:45,939 --> 05:59:47,732
People gathered.

4013
05:59:47,858 --> 05:59:52,528
The Christians heard the Jews
were being rounded up.

4014
05:59:52,654 --> 05:59:55,990
- Why'd they come?
- To see the show.

4015
06:00:00,996 --> 06:00:04,332
Let's hope it never happens again.

4016
06:00:05,459 --> 06:00:08,002
- Were you scared?
- Very scared.

4017
06:00:08,128 --> 06:00:11,130
There were young people,

4018
06:00:11,256 --> 06:00:14,133
sick people, little children,

4019
06:00:14,259 --> 06:00:17,428
the old, the crazy, and so on.

4020
06:00:22,518 --> 06:00:26,312
When we saw
they'd even brought the insane,

4021
06:00:26,438 --> 06:00:30,024
even the sick from the hospital,

4022
06:00:30,150 --> 06:00:33,444
we were frightened

4023
06:00:33,570 --> 06:00:36,656
for the survival
of the whole community.

4024
06:00:39,451 --> 06:00:40,952
What were you told?

4025
06:00:41,078 --> 06:00:44,122
That we were
to appear here at the fort

4026
06:00:44,248 --> 06:00:47,083
to be taken to work in Germany.

4027
06:00:48,460 --> 06:00:51,254
- Poland.
- Poland, that's right.

4028
06:00:52,297 --> 06:00:58,344
The Germans had put up
a proclamation on all the walls in Corfu.

4029
06:00:59,138 --> 06:01:02,765
It said all Jews had to report.

4030
06:01:02,891 --> 06:01:04,642
And once we were all rounded up,

4031
06:01:04,768 --> 06:01:09,605
life would be better
without us in Greece.

4032
06:01:09,731 --> 06:01:14,777
It was signed by the police chiefs,
by officials and by the mayors.

4033
06:01:14,903 --> 06:01:17,780
- That it's better without Jews?
- Yes.

4034
06:01:18,323 --> 06:01:20,992
We found out after we came back.

4035
06:01:23,328 --> 06:01:25,413
Was Corfu anti-Semitic?

4036
06:01:30,627 --> 06:01:33,796
Corfu's always had anti-Semitism?

4037
06:01:33,922 --> 06:01:35,423
It existed, sure,

4038
06:01:35,549 --> 06:01:40,595
but it wasn't so strong
in the years just before that.

4039
06:01:40,721 --> 06:01:41,971
Why not?

4040
06:01:42,097 --> 06:01:47,476
Because they didn't think like that
against the Jews.

4041
06:01:47,603 --> 06:01:50,938
ARMANDO AARON - President
of the Corfu Jewish community

4042
06:01:51,064 --> 06:01:54,317
- And now?
- Now we're free.

4043
06:01:56,486 --> 06:01:59,030
How do you get on
with the Christians now?

4044
06:01:59,156 --> 06:02:00,740
Very well.

4045
06:02:05,078 --> 06:02:06,913
- (Man speaks Greek)
- Hmm?

4046
06:02:09,041 --> 06:02:10,208
Very well.

4047
06:02:10,334 --> 06:02:13,044
- What did he say?
- He asked me what you said.

4048
06:02:13,170 --> 06:02:16,672
He agrees our relations
with the Christians are very good.

4049
06:02:16,798 --> 06:02:18,841
(Man ♪2 speaks Greek)

4050
06:02:31,188 --> 06:02:35,608
- Did all the Jews live in the ghetto?
- Most of them.

4051
06:02:41,365 --> 06:02:43,658
What happened after the Jews left?

4052
06:02:43,784 --> 06:02:47,995
They took all our possessions,
all the gold we had with us.

4053
06:02:48,121 --> 06:02:52,124
They took the keys to our houses
and stole everything.

4054
06:02:55,879 --> 06:02:58,506
To whom was all this given?
Who stole it all?

4055
06:02:58,632 --> 06:03:02,843
By law, it was to go
to the Greek government.

4056
06:03:02,970 --> 06:03:07,848
But the state got
only a small part of it.

4057
06:03:07,975 --> 06:03:10,893
The rest was stolen, usurped.

4058
06:03:11,019 --> 06:03:14,522
- By whom?
- By everybody, and by the Germans.

4059
06:03:19,319 --> 06:03:22,446
(Lanzmann)
Of the 1,700 people deported...

4060
06:03:22,572 --> 06:03:25,908
(Aaron) Around 122 were saved.

4061
06:03:26,576 --> 06:03:29,412
95% of them died.

4062
06:03:32,374 --> 06:03:34,834
Was it a long trip
from Corfu to Auschwitz?

4063
06:03:34,960 --> 06:03:37,461
We were arrested here on June 9,

4064
06:03:37,587 --> 06:03:41,299
and finally arrived June 29.

4065
06:03:41,425 --> 06:03:45,261
Most were burned
on the night of the 29th.

4066
06:03:45,762 --> 06:03:48,014
It lasted from June 9 to 29?

4067
06:03:48,140 --> 06:03:50,141
(Speaks Greek)

4068
06:03:52,227 --> 06:03:55,062
We stayed here for around 5 days.

4069
06:03:57,733 --> 06:03:59,567
Here in the fort.

4070
06:04:02,362 --> 06:04:06,824
No one dared escape
and leave his father, mother, brothers.

4071
06:04:06,950 --> 06:04:12,621
Our solidarity was
on religious and family grounds.

4072
06:04:15,250 --> 06:04:18,127
The first group left on June 11.

4073
06:04:19,838 --> 06:04:24,175
I went with the 2nd convoy,
on June 15.

4074
06:04:32,059 --> 06:04:34,143
What kind of a boat were you on?

4075
06:04:34,686 --> 06:04:41,067
A zattera. That's a boat
made of barrels and planks.

4076
06:04:41,193 --> 06:04:44,904
It was towed by a small boat
with Germans in it.

4077
06:04:46,865 --> 06:04:50,326
On our boat
there were 1, 2 or 3 guards,

4078
06:04:50,452 --> 06:04:53,829
not many Germans,
but we were terrified.

4079
06:04:53,955 --> 06:04:57,708
You can understand,
terror is the best of guards.

4080
06:05:20,357 --> 06:05:23,651
- What was the journey like?
- Terrible! Terrible!

4081
06:05:25,862 --> 06:05:28,447
No water, nothing to eat.

4082
06:05:28,573 --> 06:05:34,370
90 cars that were good
for only 20 animals,

4083
06:05:34,496 --> 06:05:36,580
all of us standing up.

4084
06:05:39,334 --> 06:05:41,502
A lot of us died.

4085
06:05:42,462 --> 06:05:45,923
Later, they put the dead
in another car in quicklime.

4086
06:05:46,049 --> 06:05:51,262
They burned them in Auschwitz, too.

4087
06:05:52,139 --> 06:05:53,973
(Whistle blows)

4088
06:06:00,397 --> 06:06:05,317
Next figure: WALTER STIER
Ex-member of the Nazi party

4089
06:06:06,194 --> 06:06:09,071
FORMER HEAD, REICH RAILWAYS,
BUREAU 33

4090
06:06:09,197 --> 06:06:11,449
"RAILROADS OF THE REICH"

4091
06:06:11,575 --> 06:06:14,410
(Lanzmann, in German)
You never saw a train?

4092
06:06:14,536 --> 06:06:16,328
(Stier) No, never.

4093
06:06:17,539 --> 06:06:20,541
We had so much work,
I never left my desk.

4094
06:06:21,543 --> 06:06:23,878
We worked day and night.

4095
06:06:30,260 --> 06:06:31,844
(Lanzmann) "G.E.D.O.B."

4096
06:06:32,512 --> 06:06:37,308
"GEDOB" means
"Head Office of Eastbound Traffic."

4097
06:06:41,146 --> 06:06:45,649
(Stier) In January 1940,
I was assigned to GEDOB Krakow.

4098
06:06:48,111 --> 06:06:52,573
In mid-1943,
I was moved to Warsaw.

4099
06:06:53,492 --> 06:06:59,205
I was made chief traffic planner.

4100
06:06:59,331 --> 06:07:02,041
Chief of the traffic planning office.

4101
06:07:04,211 --> 06:07:10,591
(Lanzmann) But your duties were
the same before and after 1943?

4102
06:07:11,426 --> 06:07:16,555
(Stier) The only change: I was
promoted to head of the department.

4103
06:07:19,768 --> 06:07:26,065
What were your specific duties
at GEDOB in Poland during the war?

4104
06:07:27,108 --> 06:07:32,905
(Stier) The work was barely different
from the work in Germany:

4105
06:07:35,283 --> 06:07:37,076
preparing timetables,

4106
06:07:37,202 --> 06:07:43,290
coordinating the movement
of special trains with regular trains.

4107
06:07:45,085 --> 06:07:48,003
- There were several departments?
- Yes.

4108
06:07:48,964 --> 06:07:53,467
Department 33 was in charge
of special trains

4109
06:07:53,593 --> 06:07:56,262
and regular trains.

4110
06:07:57,764 --> 06:08:00,641
The special trains were handled
by Department 33.

4111
06:08:01,560 --> 06:08:05,145
You were always
in the Department of Special Trains?

4112
06:08:05,272 --> 06:08:06,814
Yes.

4113
06:08:07,774 --> 06:08:12,194
What's the difference between
a special and a regular train?

4114
06:08:13,905 --> 06:08:16,282
A regular train may be used

4115
06:08:16,408 --> 06:08:20,828
by anyone
who purchases a ticket.

4116
06:08:23,748 --> 06:08:26,500
Say from Krakow to Warsaw.

4117
06:08:26,626 --> 06:08:29,211
Or from Krakow to Lemberg.

4118
06:08:30,880 --> 06:08:36,468
A special train has to be ordered.

4119
06:08:39,764 --> 06:08:43,601
The train is specially put together

4120
06:08:43,727 --> 06:08:46,228
and people pay...

4121
06:08:47,897 --> 06:08:50,107
...group fares.

4122
06:08:50,984 --> 06:08:53,319
Are there still special trains now?

4123
06:08:53,445 --> 06:08:55,195
- Of course.
- Yes?

4124
06:08:55,322 --> 06:08:58,032
Just as there were then.

4125
06:08:58,658 --> 06:09:02,494
For group vacations,
you can or ganise a special train?

4126
06:09:02,621 --> 06:09:05,372
Yes, for instance,

4127
06:09:05,498 --> 06:09:09,585
for immigrant workers
returning home for the holidays...

4128
06:09:09,711 --> 06:09:11,045
(Clears throat)

4129
06:09:11,171 --> 06:09:16,216
...special trains are scheduled.

4130
06:09:16,343 --> 06:09:20,054
Or else one couldn't handle
the traffic.

4131
06:09:22,724 --> 06:09:28,687
You said after the war you handled
trains for visiting dignitaries.

4132
06:09:28,813 --> 06:09:31,148
After the war, yes.

4133
06:09:32,484 --> 06:09:35,986
If a king visits Germany by train,

4134
06:09:36,112 --> 06:09:38,238
that's a special train?

4135
06:09:38,365 --> 06:09:40,949
- That's a special train.
- Yes.

4136
06:09:41,076 --> 06:09:46,163
But the procedure isn't the same

4137
06:09:46,289 --> 06:09:53,712
as for special trains
for group tours, and so on.

4138
06:09:53,838 --> 06:09:59,301
State visits are handled
by the Foreign Service.

4139
06:10:02,138 --> 06:10:05,057
May I ask you another question?

4140
06:10:06,059 --> 06:10:11,563
Why were there more special trains

4141
06:10:11,690 --> 06:10:14,108
during the war,
than before or after?

4142
06:10:14,234 --> 06:10:17,403
I see what you're getting at.

4143
06:10:17,529 --> 06:10:24,410
You're referring to the so-called
"resettlement trains."

4144
06:10:24,911 --> 06:10:29,415
- "Resettlement." That's it.
- That's what they were called.

4145
06:10:29,541 --> 06:10:32,918
Those trains were ordered

4146
06:10:34,879 --> 06:10:42,879
by the Ministry of Transport
of the Reich.

4147
06:10:45,181 --> 06:10:50,769
You needed an order from the Ministry
of Transport of the Reich...

4148
06:10:53,898 --> 06:10:57,860
- In Berlin?
- Correct.

4149
06:10:58,695 --> 06:11:03,282
As for the implementation
of those orders,

4150
06:11:03,408 --> 06:11:08,746
the Head Office of Eastbound Traffic
in Berlin dealt with it.

4151
06:11:08,872 --> 06:11:10,664
(Lanzmann) Yes, I understand.

4152
06:11:10,790 --> 06:11:13,584
- (Stier) Is that clear?
- Perfectly.

4153
06:11:13,710 --> 06:11:19,548
But mostly, at that time,
who was being "resettled"?

4154
06:11:20,008 --> 06:11:22,342
No! We didn't know that.

4155
06:11:22,927 --> 06:11:26,221
Only when we were fleeing
from Warsaw ourselves,

4156
06:11:26,347 --> 06:11:29,892
did we learn that
they could have been Jews,

4157
06:11:30,018 --> 06:11:33,520
or criminals, or similar people.

4158
06:11:33,646 --> 06:11:37,274
- Jews, criminals?
- Criminals. All kinds.

4159
06:11:37,400 --> 06:11:39,735
Special trains for criminals?

4160
06:11:39,861 --> 06:11:45,324
No, that was just an expression.

4161
06:11:45,450 --> 06:11:47,618
You couldn't talk about that.

4162
06:11:47,744 --> 06:11:50,996
Unless you were tired of life,

4163
06:11:51,122 --> 06:11:54,333
it was best not to mention that.

4164
06:11:54,459 --> 06:12:01,882
(Lanzmann) But you knew that the trains
to Treblinka or Auschwitz were...

4165
06:12:02,008 --> 06:12:04,510
Of course we knew.

4166
06:12:04,636 --> 06:12:06,678
I was the last district...

4167
06:12:06,805 --> 06:12:10,015
Without me, these trains
couldn't reach their destination.

4168
06:12:11,226 --> 06:12:13,393
For instance,
a train that started in Essen

4169
06:12:13,520 --> 06:12:18,106
had to go through
the district of Wuppertal,

4170
06:12:18,233 --> 06:12:23,195
Hannover, Magdeburg, Berlin,

4171
06:12:23,321 --> 06:12:28,909
Frankfurt/Oder, Posen, Warsaw, etc.

4172
06:12:29,035 --> 06:12:30,536
So I had to.

4173
06:12:30,662 --> 06:12:35,499
Did you know that Treblinka
meant extermination?

4174
06:12:35,625 --> 06:12:37,000
Of course not!

4175
06:12:37,126 --> 06:12:39,002
You didn't know?

4176
06:12:39,128 --> 06:12:41,255
Good God, no!
How could we know?

4177
06:12:41,381 --> 06:12:43,966
I never went to Treblinka.

4178
06:12:44,092 --> 06:12:51,098
I stayed in Krakow, in Warsaw,
glued to my desk.

4179
06:12:51,224 --> 06:12:52,683
You were a...?

4180
06:12:52,809 --> 06:12:57,145
- I was strictly a bureaucrat.
- I see.

4181
06:12:57,272 --> 06:13:03,902
But it's astonishing that people
in the Department of Special Trains

4182
06:13:04,028 --> 06:13:08,574
never knew about the "final solution."

4183
06:13:08,700 --> 06:13:10,075
(Stier) We were at war.

4184
06:13:10,201 --> 06:13:16,874
Because there were others who
worked for the rail roads who knew.

4185
06:13:17,000 --> 06:13:20,002
- Like the train conductors.
- No.

4186
06:13:20,128 --> 06:13:22,170
Yes, they saw it. They did.

4187
06:13:22,297 --> 06:13:26,592
But as to what happened, I know...

4188
06:13:26,718 --> 06:13:30,262
What was Treblinka for you?
Treblinka or Auschwitz?

4189
06:13:30,388 --> 06:13:34,433
Yes, for us,
Treblinka, Belzec and all that

4190
06:13:34,559 --> 06:13:37,227
were concentration camps.

4191
06:13:37,353 --> 06:13:39,730
- A destination?
- Yes, that's all.

4192
06:13:39,856 --> 06:13:42,316
- But not death?
- No.

4193
06:13:42,442 --> 06:13:44,443
People were put up there.

4194
06:13:44,569 --> 06:13:48,655
For instance,
for a train coming from Essen

4195
06:13:48,781 --> 06:13:55,579
or Cologne, or elsewhere,
room had to be made for them there.

4196
06:13:55,705 --> 06:14:00,208
With the war and the allies
advancing everywhere,

4197
06:14:00,335 --> 06:14:04,588
those people had to be
concentrated in camps.

4198
06:14:04,714 --> 06:14:08,050
When exactly did you find out?

4199
06:14:08,176 --> 06:14:13,972
When the word got around,

4200
06:14:14,098 --> 06:14:16,266
when it was whispered.

4201
06:14:16,392 --> 06:14:19,102
It was never said outright.

4202
06:14:19,228 --> 06:14:22,064
Good God, no!
They'd have hauled you off at once!

4203
06:14:22,190 --> 06:14:24,691
We heard things...

4204
06:14:24,817 --> 06:14:28,570
- Rumours?
- That's it, rumours.

4205
06:14:28,696 --> 06:14:30,948
During the war?

4206
06:14:31,074 --> 06:14:33,450
Towards the end of the war.

4207
06:14:33,576 --> 06:14:35,327
- Not in 1942?
- No!

4208
06:14:35,453 --> 06:14:37,913
Good God, no! Not a word!

4209
06:14:38,039 --> 06:14:42,501
Towards the end of 1944, maybe.

4210
06:14:42,627 --> 06:14:44,461
- End of 1944?
- Not before.

4211
06:14:44,587 --> 06:14:46,004
What did you...?

4212
06:14:46,130 --> 06:14:52,344
It was said that people
were being sent to camps,

4213
06:14:52,470 --> 06:14:57,474
and those who weren't in good health
probably wouldn't survive.

4214
06:14:57,600 --> 06:15:00,936
Extermination came to you
as a big surprise?

4215
06:15:01,062 --> 06:15:02,980
Completely. Yes.

4216
06:15:03,106 --> 06:15:05,774
- You had no idea.
- Not the slightest.

4217
06:15:05,900 --> 06:15:09,528
Like that camp,
what was its name...?

4218
06:15:10,196 --> 06:15:13,573
It was in the Oppeln district.

4219
06:15:14,117 --> 06:15:16,243
I've got it: Auschwitz.

4220
06:15:16,369 --> 06:15:19,538
- Auschwitz was in the Oppeln district.
- Right.

4221
06:15:19,664 --> 06:15:23,834
- Auschwitz wasn't far from Krakow.
- That's true.

4222
06:15:23,960 --> 06:15:26,712
We never heard a word about that.

4223
06:15:27,380 --> 06:15:31,758
- Auschwitz to Krakow is 40 miles.
- That's not very far.

4224
06:15:31,884 --> 06:15:34,428
And we knew nothing.
Not a clue.

4225
06:15:34,554 --> 06:15:35,929
No.

4226
06:15:36,055 --> 06:15:39,391
But you knew that the Nazis...

4227
06:15:39,517 --> 06:15:44,813
that Hitler didn't like the Jews?

4228
06:15:44,939 --> 06:15:50,402
That we did. It was well-known,
it appeared in print.

4229
06:15:50,528 --> 06:15:52,654
It was no secret.

4230
06:15:52,780 --> 06:15:57,868
But as to their extermination,
that was news to us.

4231
06:15:57,994 --> 06:16:02,289
I mean,
even today people deny it.

4232
06:16:02,415 --> 06:16:06,168
They say there couldn't
have been so many Jews.

4233
06:16:06,294 --> 06:16:08,170
Is it true? I don't know.

4234
06:16:08,296 --> 06:16:10,213
That's what they say.

4235
06:16:10,339 --> 06:16:14,217
Anyway what was done
was an outrage.

4236
06:16:14,343 --> 06:16:16,636
- What?
- The extermination.

4237
06:16:16,763 --> 06:16:20,640
Everyone condemns it.
Every decent person.

4238
06:16:20,767 --> 06:16:23,143
But as for knowing about it,
we didn't.

4239
06:16:26,105 --> 06:16:28,356
The Poles, for instance.

4240
06:16:28,816 --> 06:16:32,944
The Polish people knew everything.

4241
06:16:33,071 --> 06:16:36,031
That's not surprising, Dr. Sorel.

4242
06:16:36,157 --> 06:16:40,744
They lived nearby,
they heard, they talked.

4243
06:16:40,870 --> 06:16:44,539
And they didn't have to keep quiet.

4244
06:17:05,937 --> 06:17:07,687
(Whistle blows)

4245
06:18:02,285 --> 06:18:07,289
(Hilberg) This is
the Fahrplananordnung Number 587,

4246
06:18:08,291 --> 06:18:11,585
which is typical for special trains.

4247
06:18:12,587 --> 06:18:17,299
The number of the order goes to show you
how many of them there were.

4248
06:18:19,302 --> 06:18:24,389
Underneath:
"Nur fur den Dienstgebrauch,"

4249
06:18:25,725 --> 06:18:27,976
"Only for internal use."

4250
06:18:30,521 --> 06:18:35,192
But this turns out to be
a very low classification for secrecy.

4251
06:18:35,318 --> 06:18:36,610
Yes.

4252
06:18:36,736 --> 06:18:40,989
The fact that, in this entire document,
which, after all, deals with death trains,

4253
06:18:41,115 --> 06:18:42,657
one cannot see...

4254
06:18:42,783 --> 06:18:45,368
Not only on this one,
but one cannot see it on others.

4255
06:18:45,494 --> 06:18:48,788
One cannot see
the word "geheim - secret,"

4256
06:18:48,915 --> 06:18:51,374
it's astonishing to me.

4257
06:18:51,500 --> 06:18:55,420
That they would not have done that
is very astonishing.

4258
06:18:55,546 --> 06:18:59,424
But, on second thought, I believe
that, had they labelled it secret,

4259
06:18:59,550 --> 06:19:03,595
they would have invited a great many
inquiries from people who got hold of it.

4260
06:19:03,721 --> 06:19:06,723
They would then have perhaps
raised more questions.

4261
06:19:06,849 --> 06:19:09,476
They would have focused
attention on the thing.

4262
06:19:09,602 --> 06:19:14,231
And the key to the entire operation,
from a psychological standpoint,

4263
06:19:14,357 --> 06:19:16,566
was never to utter the words

4264
06:19:16,692 --> 06:19:19,653
that would be appropriate
to the action being taken.

4265
06:19:20,279 --> 06:19:23,281
"Say nothing. Do these things.

4266
06:19:23,407 --> 06:19:25,408
"Do not describe them."

4267
06:19:25,534 --> 06:19:28,328
So, therefore, this is
"Nur für den Dienstgebrauch."

4268
06:19:28,454 --> 06:19:34,334
And now notice to how many recipients
this particular order goes.

4269
06:19:35,711 --> 06:19:38,588
"BFE Bahnhofe."

4270
06:19:38,714 --> 06:19:45,679
On this stretch, there is one, two,
three, four, five, six, seven, eight...

4271
06:19:45,805 --> 06:19:48,098
- And here we are in Malkinia...
- Malkinia.

4272
06:19:48,224 --> 06:19:50,642
Which is, of course,
the station near Treblinka.

4273
06:19:50,768 --> 06:19:51,935
Of course.

4274
06:19:52,061 --> 06:19:55,355
But notice that it takes
eight recipients

4275
06:19:55,481 --> 06:19:58,441
for this relatively short distance,

4276
06:19:59,527 --> 06:20:02,737
through Radom
to the Warsaw district.

4277
06:20:02,863 --> 06:20:07,325
Eight, because the train passes
through these stations.

4278
06:20:07,451 --> 06:20:10,578
Therefore, each one has to know.

4279
06:20:12,081 --> 06:20:16,293
Not only that, but, of course, you're not
going to write two pieces of paper

4280
06:20:16,419 --> 06:20:17,836
if you can write one.

4281
06:20:17,962 --> 06:20:21,464
So, therefore,
we find here not only PKR,

4282
06:20:21,590 --> 06:20:26,136
which is a death train going here,

4283
06:20:26,262 --> 06:20:28,722
in the plan labelled thus,

4284
06:20:28,848 --> 06:20:32,851
but we also see the empty train
after it has arrived in Treblinka,

4285
06:20:32,977 --> 06:20:34,811
now originating in Treblinka.

4286
06:20:34,937 --> 06:20:38,648
You can always know it's an empty
train with the word "L" in front of it:

4287
06:20:38,774 --> 06:20:40,275
"Leer".

4288
06:20:40,401 --> 06:20:43,278
(Reads aloud German)

4289
06:20:43,404 --> 06:20:46,865
- Yes. And now... And now...
- ...which means "return the empty train."

4290
06:20:46,991 --> 06:20:50,493
And now we're going back.
Then we have another train.

4291
06:20:50,619 --> 06:20:56,916
Now notice that there's very little
subtlety to this numbering system.

4292
06:20:57,043 --> 06:21:01,588
We're going from 9228 to 9229,

4293
06:21:01,714 --> 06:21:07,927
to 9230, to 9231, to 9232.

4294
06:21:08,054 --> 06:21:12,599
Hardly...
Hardly any, uh, originality here.

4295
06:21:12,725 --> 06:21:14,601
It's just very regular traffic.

4296
06:21:16,562 --> 06:21:18,104
(Lanzmann) Death traffic.

4297
06:21:18,230 --> 06:21:20,023
(Hilberg) Death traffic.

4298
06:21:24,487 --> 06:21:28,656
And, here, we see that,

4299
06:21:30,451 --> 06:21:33,495
starting out in one ghetto,
which obviously is being emptied,

4300
06:21:33,621 --> 06:21:35,955
the train leaves for Treblinka.

4301
06:21:36,624 --> 06:21:41,920
It leaves on the 30th of September, 1942,

4302
06:21:42,046 --> 06:21:46,341
18 minutes after 4:00,
by schedule at least,

4303
06:21:46,467 --> 06:21:52,013
arrives there at 11:24
on the next morning.

4304
06:21:54,517 --> 06:21:56,976
This is also a very long train,

4305
06:21:57,937 --> 06:22:01,064
which may be the reason
that it takes so slow.

4306
06:22:01,190 --> 06:22:05,735
It's "50 G." That's, er...
"funfzig Gutervagen,"

4307
06:22:05,861 --> 06:22:08,905
50 freight cars filled with people.

4308
06:22:09,031 --> 06:22:12,158
That's an exceptionally heavy transport.

4309
06:22:13,119 --> 06:22:17,414
Now, once the train has been
unloaded at Treblinka...

4310
06:22:17,540 --> 06:22:19,582
And you notice there are
two numbers here:

4311
06:22:19,708 --> 06:22:22,669
11:24, that's in the morning,

4312
06:22:22,795 --> 06:22:28,591
and 15:59, which is to say,
almost 4:00 in the afternoon.

4313
06:22:29,176 --> 06:22:32,554
In that interval of time,
the train has to be unloaded,

4314
06:22:32,680 --> 06:22:34,973
cleaned and turned around.

4315
06:22:35,099 --> 06:22:37,225
It has to be very fast.

4316
06:22:37,893 --> 06:22:39,727
It has to be turned around.

4317
06:22:39,854 --> 06:22:42,063
And you see, here,
the same numbers appear

4318
06:22:42,189 --> 06:22:47,986
as the "Leerzug," now empty train,
goes to another place.

4319
06:22:48,737 --> 06:22:53,032
And it leaves at 4:00 in the afternoon

4320
06:22:53,159 --> 06:22:56,327
and now goes to that other place,
which is yet another small town,

4321
06:22:56,454 --> 06:22:59,080
where it picks up victims.

4322
06:22:59,748 --> 06:23:05,587
And there you are
at 3:00 in the morning.

4323
06:23:06,464 --> 06:23:09,757
It leaves on the 23rd
at 3:00 in the morning

4324
06:23:11,177 --> 06:23:13,428
and arrives there the next day.

4325
06:23:16,390 --> 06:23:19,642
What is that? It seems to be
the same train, as a matter off act.

4326
06:23:19,768 --> 06:23:24,522
- This is quite obviously the same.
- Which gets every time another number.

4327
06:23:24,648 --> 06:23:27,400
The number has to be changed,
quite obviously. Correct.

4328
06:23:27,526 --> 06:23:31,362
Then it goes back to Treblinka,
and this is again a long trip.

4329
06:23:31,489 --> 06:23:35,992
It arrives in Treblinka,
now goes back to yet another place.

4330
06:23:36,494 --> 06:23:40,079
Then the same situation, the same trip.

4331
06:23:41,790 --> 06:23:43,666
And then yet another.

4332
06:23:45,669 --> 06:23:47,629
It goes to Treblinka

4333
06:23:47,755 --> 06:23:53,134
and then arrives in Czestochowa
on the 29th of September.

4334
06:23:53,260 --> 06:23:55,470
And then the cycle is complete.

4335
06:23:58,349 --> 06:24:00,892
And this is called a "Fahrplananordnung,"

4336
06:24:01,018 --> 06:24:04,771
and if you count up
the number of, er...

4337
06:24:06,440 --> 06:24:09,234
not empty numbers,
but full ones, PKRs...

4338
06:24:09,360 --> 06:24:11,152
There's one.

4339
06:24:11,278 --> 06:24:12,862
There is one.

4340
06:24:15,032 --> 06:24:16,282
- Here.
- But why?

4341
06:24:16,408 --> 06:24:19,160
- That's two. That's three.
- Why such a...?

4342
06:24:19,286 --> 06:24:20,495
That's four.

4343
06:24:20,621 --> 06:24:24,499
We may be talking here
about 10,000 dead Jews

4344
06:24:24,625 --> 06:24:27,460
on this one Fahrplananordnung
right here.

4345
06:24:27,586 --> 06:24:30,672
- More than 10,000.
- Well, we will be conservative.

4346
06:24:30,798 --> 06:24:31,881
Yes.

4347
06:24:32,007 --> 06:24:36,636
But why such a document is
so fascinating, as a matter off act?

4348
06:24:37,137 --> 06:24:40,098
Because I was in Treblinka,
and to have the two things together,

4349
06:24:40,224 --> 06:24:41,933
Treblinka and that document...

4350
06:24:42,059 --> 06:24:44,769
Well, you see,
when I hold a document in my hand,

4351
06:24:44,895 --> 06:24:47,605
particularly if it's an original document,

4352
06:24:48,148 --> 06:24:51,859
then I hold something
which is actually something

4353
06:24:51,986 --> 06:24:54,654
that the original bureaucrat
had held in his hand.

4354
06:24:54,780 --> 06:24:58,700
It's an artefact. It's a leftover.
It's the only leftover there is.

4355
06:24:58,826 --> 06:25:01,452
- Yes.
- The dead are not around.

4356
06:25:10,379 --> 06:25:12,213
(Dogs barking)

4357
06:25:21,348 --> 06:25:26,019
TREBLINKA - THE STATION

4358
06:25:32,651 --> 06:25:36,404
(Hilberg) The Reichsbahn was
ready to ship, in principle,

4359
06:25:36,530 --> 06:25:40,158
any cargo in return for payment.

4360
06:25:41,368 --> 06:25:45,371
And, therefore, the basic key,
price-controlled key,

4361
06:25:45,497 --> 06:25:48,875
was that Jews were going to be
shipped to Treblinka,

4362
06:25:49,001 --> 06:25:52,962
were going to be shipped to Auschwitz,
Sobibor, or any other destination,

4363
06:25:53,088 --> 06:25:58,092
so long as the rail roads were paid
by the track kilometre,

4364
06:25:58,218 --> 06:26:00,345
so many pfennig per mile.

4365
06:26:00,471 --> 06:26:04,474
And the basic rate was the same
throughout the war,

4366
06:26:05,434 --> 06:26:10,897
with children under 10 going at halffare,
children under four going free.

4367
06:26:11,023 --> 06:26:14,317
And the payment had to be made
for only one way.

4368
06:26:14,443 --> 06:26:18,196
The guards, of course, had to have
return fare paid for them

4369
06:26:18,322 --> 06:26:21,157
because they were going back
to their place of origin.

4370
06:26:22,576 --> 06:26:27,205
Excuse me. The children were
shipped in the extermination camps...

4371
06:26:27,331 --> 06:26:29,999
- The children under four...
- ...went free.

4372
06:26:30,125 --> 06:26:34,045
They had the privilege
to be gassed freely?

4373
06:26:34,171 --> 06:26:36,547
Yes, their transport was free.

4374
06:26:36,674 --> 06:26:41,719
And, in addition to that,
because the person who had to pay,

4375
06:26:41,845 --> 06:26:45,890
the agency that had to pay
was the agency that ordered the train,

4376
06:26:46,016 --> 06:26:49,852
and that happened to have been
the Gestapo, Eichmann's office...

4377
06:26:49,978 --> 06:26:56,901
Because of the financial problem which
that office had in making payments,

4378
06:26:57,027 --> 06:27:01,447
the Reichsbahn agreed on group fare.

4379
06:27:01,573 --> 06:27:04,784
So the Jews were being shipped
in much the same way

4380
06:27:04,910 --> 06:27:09,163
as any excursion fare would be granted
if there were enough people travelling.

4381
06:27:09,289 --> 06:27:12,125
And the minimum was 400,
a kind of charter fare.

4382
06:27:12,251 --> 06:27:15,044
400 was the minimum.

4383
06:27:15,170 --> 06:27:17,672
So even if there were fewer than 400,

4384
06:27:17,798 --> 06:27:20,466
it would pay to say that there were 400,

4385
06:27:20,592 --> 06:27:24,679
and, in that way,
get the halffare for adults as well.

4386
06:27:25,222 --> 06:27:27,014
And that was the basic principle.

4387
06:27:27,141 --> 06:27:29,559
Now, of course, if there was
exceptional filth in the cars,

4388
06:27:29,685 --> 06:27:31,144
which might be the case,

4389
06:27:31,270 --> 06:27:34,439
if there was damage to the equipment,
which might be the case,

4390
06:27:34,565 --> 06:27:36,649
because the transports took so long,

4391
06:27:36,775 --> 06:27:41,195
and the inmates, to the extent
of five or ten percent, died en route,

4392
06:27:41,321 --> 06:27:45,199
then there might be
an additional bill for that damage.

4393
06:27:45,325 --> 06:27:47,869
But, in principle,

4394
06:27:47,995 --> 06:27:53,166
so long as payment was being made,
transports were being shipped.

4395
06:27:53,292 --> 06:27:56,043
Sometimes, the SS got credit.

4396
06:27:56,170 --> 06:27:59,589
Sometimes, the transport went out
before payment,

4397
06:27:59,715 --> 06:28:03,259
because, as you see,
the whole business was handled,

4398
06:28:03,385 --> 06:28:07,221
as in the case
of any other charter traffic, especially,

4399
06:28:07,347 --> 06:28:10,725
or any really personal traffic
of any kind,

4400
06:28:10,851 --> 06:28:12,310
through a travel bureau.

4401
06:28:12,436 --> 06:28:18,524
Mitteleuropaisches Reiseburo would
handle some of these transactions:

4402
06:28:18,650 --> 06:28:21,944
the billing procedure,
the ticketing procedure.

4403
06:28:22,070 --> 06:28:24,989
Or if a smaller transport
was involved, the SS would...

4404
06:28:25,115 --> 06:28:29,494
It was the same bureau who was dealing
with any kind of normal passenger?

4405
06:28:29,620 --> 06:28:31,621
- Absolutely.
- It was dealing with the Jews too.

4406
06:28:31,747 --> 06:28:33,956
Just the official travel bureau.

4407
06:28:34,082 --> 06:28:37,960
Mitteleuropaisches Reiseburo
will ship people to the gas chambers,

4408
06:28:38,086 --> 06:28:42,924
or they will ship vacationers
to their favourite resorts.

4409
06:28:43,050 --> 06:28:45,885
And that was basically the same office
and the same operation,

4410
06:28:46,011 --> 06:28:48,429
the same procedure, the same billing.

4411
06:28:48,555 --> 06:28:51,390
- No difference?
- No difference whatsoever.

4412
06:28:51,517 --> 06:28:54,352
And, as a matter of course,
everybody would do that job

4413
06:28:54,478 --> 06:28:57,438
as if it were the most
normal thing to do.

4414
06:28:58,065 --> 06:28:59,899
But it was not a normal job.

4415
06:29:00,025 --> 06:29:02,318
No, it was not a normal job.

4416
06:29:02,778 --> 06:29:04,987
As a matter off act,
you know, even, uh...

4417
06:29:05,113 --> 06:29:09,075
even the complicated currency
procedures were followed

4418
06:29:09,201 --> 06:29:12,328
in much the same way
as with any other transaction,

4419
06:29:12,454 --> 06:29:16,165
if borders had to be crossed,
and that was very frequent.

4420
06:29:16,291 --> 06:29:17,917
For instance?

4421
06:29:18,043 --> 06:29:22,338
Well, I think the most interesting
example is, of course, Greece,

4422
06:29:22,464 --> 06:29:27,552
the transports from Saloniki, Greece,
in the spring of 1943,

4423
06:29:27,678 --> 06:29:33,140
involving some 46,000 victims
over a considerable distance,

4424
06:29:33,267 --> 06:29:36,769
so that, even with group fare,
the bill came to almost two million marks,

4425
06:29:36,895 --> 06:29:38,938
which was quite a sum.

4426
06:29:39,064 --> 06:29:42,525
And the basic principle, you see,
with such traffic,

4427
06:29:42,651 --> 06:29:46,279
is that which is employed
in the usual customary way,

4428
06:29:46,738 --> 06:29:49,282
even to this day, all over the world.

4429
06:29:49,408 --> 06:29:52,660
One pays in the currency
of the place of origin,

4430
06:29:52,786 --> 06:29:58,457
but, then, one has to pay
the participating rail roads en route

4431
06:29:58,584 --> 06:30:00,585
in their own currencies.

4432
06:30:01,211 --> 06:30:04,797
From Saloniki,
they had to cross Greece...

4433
06:30:04,923 --> 06:30:07,383
- They had to cross Greece.
- In Greece, it was drachmas?

4434
06:30:07,509 --> 06:30:11,137
In Greece, it was drachma, and then
you might have to go through the...

4435
06:30:11,263 --> 06:30:14,724
- Yugoslavia.
- Yes, the Serbian and Croatian rail roads.

4436
06:30:14,850 --> 06:30:19,145
And you might have to then go
through the Reichsbahn and pay in mark.

4437
06:30:20,147 --> 06:30:24,692
Now, ironically, the problem was, you see,
that the military commander in Saloniki,

4438
06:30:24,818 --> 06:30:26,235
who was in charge,

4439
06:30:26,361 --> 06:30:31,365
so he, in a sense, was the ultimate person
responsible for paying for these things,

4440
06:30:31,491 --> 06:30:33,159
didn't have the mark.

4441
06:30:33,285 --> 06:30:37,079
And he didn't have the Reichsmark,
although he did have the drachma.

4442
06:30:37,205 --> 06:30:40,750
The drachma, you see, he had
from the confiscated Jewish property

4443
06:30:40,876 --> 06:30:43,377
which was used to pay for these things.

4444
06:30:43,503 --> 06:30:45,796
This was a self-financing principle.

4445
06:30:45,923 --> 06:30:50,134
The SS or the military would
confiscate the Jewish property

4446
06:30:50,260 --> 06:30:54,555
and, with proceeds, especially from
bank deposits, would pay for transports.

4447
06:30:54,681 --> 06:30:56,515
This means that the Jews themselves...

4448
06:30:56,642 --> 06:30:58,684
- Absolutely.
- ...would pay for their death?

4449
06:30:58,810 --> 06:31:01,812
You have to remember
one basic principle:

4450
06:31:01,939 --> 06:31:05,816
there was no budget for destruction.

4451
06:31:07,402 --> 06:31:08,653
Yes.

4452
06:31:08,779 --> 06:31:12,949
So that is the reason that
the confiscated property had to be used

4453
06:31:13,075 --> 06:31:14,659
in order to make the payments.

4454
06:31:14,785 --> 06:31:15,785
All right.

4455
06:31:15,827 --> 06:31:18,537
The property of the Jews
in Saloniki was confiscated,

4456
06:31:18,664 --> 06:31:21,582
but the proceeds were
in local Greek currency.

4457
06:31:22,084 --> 06:31:24,710
The Reichsbahn, of course,
would want payment in mark.

4458
06:31:24,836 --> 06:31:28,673
How, then, do you change
the drachma into mark?

4459
06:31:28,799 --> 06:31:32,718
Now, you have exchange controllers,
right within occupied Europe.

4460
06:31:32,844 --> 06:31:35,054
The only way it could be done,
of course,

4461
06:31:35,180 --> 06:31:39,600
is if somebody
in this occupied zone obtained mark.

4462
06:31:40,102 --> 06:31:41,727
But how could they?

4463
06:31:41,853 --> 06:31:44,563
This was not
such a simple thing in wartime.

4464
06:31:45,148 --> 06:31:48,609
And, therefore, for once,
there was a default.

4465
06:31:48,735 --> 06:31:53,364
The rail road had shipped all these Jews
to Auschwitz without compensation.

4466
06:32:18,765 --> 06:32:20,599
(Whistle blows)

4467
06:32:38,326 --> 06:32:41,704
(Muller)
The "special detail's" life depended

4468
06:32:41,830 --> 06:32:45,541
on the trainloads due for extermination.

4469
06:33:00,849 --> 06:33:03,434
(Muller) When a lot of them came in,

4470
06:33:06,354 --> 06:33:08,898
the "special detail" was enlarged.

4471
06:33:19,743 --> 06:33:22,787
They couldn't do without the detail,

4472
06:33:22,913 --> 06:33:26,540
so there was no weeding-out.

4473
06:33:28,168 --> 06:33:32,630
OSWIECIM (AUSCHWITZ)
THE STATION TODAY

4474
06:33:32,756 --> 06:33:36,717
But when there were fewer trainloads...

4475
06:33:36,843 --> 06:33:38,552
(Train whistle blows)

4476
06:33:40,263 --> 06:33:45,768
It meant immediate extermination for us.

4477
06:33:51,566 --> 06:33:54,527
We, in the "special detail," knew

4478
06:33:54,653 --> 06:34:00,699
that a lack of trains
would lead to our liquidation.

4479
06:34:22,055 --> 06:34:25,850
The "special detail" lived
in a crisis situation.

4480
06:34:25,976 --> 06:34:30,229
Every day,

4481
06:34:30,355 --> 06:34:34,358
we saw thousands and thousands
of innocent people

4482
06:34:34,484 --> 06:34:37,444
disappear up the chimney.

4483
06:34:38,113 --> 06:34:42,575
With our own eyes,
we could truly fathom

4484
06:34:43,285 --> 06:34:46,162
what it means to be a human being.

4485
06:34:46,913 --> 06:34:49,290
There they came,

4486
06:34:49,416 --> 06:34:54,628
men, women, children,
all innocent.

4487
06:34:55,672 --> 06:34:59,008
They suddenly vanished,

4488
06:34:59,134 --> 06:35:01,385
and the world said nothing!

4489
06:35:01,511 --> 06:35:05,890
We felt abandoned.
By the world, by humanity.

4490
06:35:06,349 --> 06:35:11,645
But the situation taught us fully

4491
06:35:12,564 --> 06:35:17,193
what the possibility of survival meant.

4492
06:35:18,653 --> 06:35:20,571
For we could gauge

4493
06:35:21,156 --> 06:35:24,283
the infinite value of human life.

4494
06:35:25,410 --> 06:35:27,953
And we were convinced

4495
06:35:28,496 --> 06:35:33,792
that hope lingers in man
as long as he lives.

4496
06:35:33,919 --> 06:35:37,880
Where there's life,
hope must never be relinquished.

4497
06:35:38,006 --> 06:35:42,509
That's why we struggled
through our lives of hardship,

4498
06:35:42,636 --> 06:35:47,473
day after day, week after week,
month after month,

4499
06:35:47,599 --> 06:35:49,683
year after year,

4500
06:35:51,019 --> 06:35:55,731
hoping against hope to survive,

4501
06:35:58,568 --> 06:36:02,154
to escape that hell.

4502
06:36:33,436 --> 06:36:35,479
(Suchomel) At that time,

4503
06:36:36,523 --> 06:36:40,818
in January, February,

4504
06:36:42,320 --> 06:36:43,862
March,

4505
06:36:44,990 --> 06:36:48,492
hardly any trains arrived.

4506
06:36:55,834 --> 06:36:58,961
Was Treblinka glum without the trains?

4507
06:37:01,339 --> 06:37:05,217
I wouldn't say the Jews were glum.

4508
06:37:05,343 --> 06:37:08,721
They became so
when they realised...

4509
06:37:09,681 --> 06:37:14,101
I'll come to that later,
it's a story in itself.

4510
06:37:16,229 --> 06:37:20,733
- Yes, it's a story in itself.
- It's a story in itself.

4511
06:37:20,859 --> 06:37:22,651
Yes, I know.

4512
06:37:23,153 --> 06:37:24,653
The Jews...

4513
06:37:26,990 --> 06:37:29,992
...those in the work squads,
thought at first...

4514
06:37:30,118 --> 06:37:33,787
- Those in the work squads, yes.
- ...that they would survive.

4515
06:37:35,832 --> 06:37:39,710
But in January,

4516
06:37:40,420 --> 06:37:42,338
when they stopped receiving food,

4517
06:37:42,464 --> 06:37:48,052
for Wirth had decreed that
there were too many of them,

4518
06:37:48,178 --> 06:37:52,389
there were a good 500 to 600
of them in Camp I...

4519
06:37:52,515 --> 06:37:55,017
- Up there?
- Yes.

4520
06:37:56,978 --> 06:38:00,606
To keep them from rebelling,

4521
06:38:00,732 --> 06:38:03,734
they weren't shot or gassed,

4522
06:38:03,860 --> 06:38:06,320
but starved.

4523
06:38:06,446 --> 06:38:09,281
Then an epidemic broke out,

4524
06:38:09,824 --> 06:38:12,326
a kind of typhus.

4525
06:38:14,329 --> 06:38:17,748
The Jews stopped believing
they'd make it.

4526
06:38:17,874 --> 06:38:21,919
They were left to die.
They dropped like flies.

4527
06:38:23,296 --> 06:38:25,130
It was all over.

4528
06:38:26,007 --> 06:38:29,343
FRANZ SUCHOMEL

4529
06:38:29,469 --> 06:38:31,762
They'd stopped believing.

4530
06:38:33,181 --> 06:38:35,891
It was all very well to say...

4531
06:38:36,768 --> 06:38:39,895
We kept on insisting,
"You're going to live."

4532
06:38:40,021 --> 06:38:42,356
We almost believed it ourselves.

4533
06:38:42,482 --> 06:38:46,276
If you lie enough,
you believe your own lies.

4534
06:38:46,403 --> 06:38:47,778
Yes.

4535
06:38:48,571 --> 06:38:51,532
But they replied to me,

4536
06:38:51,658 --> 06:38:57,579
"No, chief,
we're just reprieved corpses."

4537
06:39:07,340 --> 06:39:11,510
(Glazar) The "dead season,"
as it was called,

4538
06:39:12,095 --> 06:39:19,435
began in February 1943,

4539
06:39:20,645 --> 06:39:24,815
after the big trainloads came in
from Grodno and Bialystok.

4540
06:39:26,401 --> 06:39:28,527
Absolute quiet.

4541
06:39:30,155 --> 06:39:35,200
It quieted in late January,
February and into March.

4542
06:39:35,326 --> 06:39:36,660
Nothing.

4543
06:39:37,162 --> 06:39:40,414
Not one trainload.

4544
06:39:43,042 --> 06:39:45,961
The whole camp was empty.

4545
06:39:50,008 --> 06:39:55,095
And suddenly, everywhere,
there was hunger.

4546
06:39:59,517 --> 06:40:04,813
It kept increasing.

4547
06:40:09,736 --> 06:40:13,113
And one day when the famine
was at its peak,

4548
06:40:14,574 --> 06:40:21,413
Oberscharführer Kurt Franz
appeared before us...

4549
06:40:23,750 --> 06:40:25,918
...and told us,

4550
06:40:26,044 --> 06:40:32,883
"The trains will be coming in again,
starting tomorrow."

4551
06:40:45,480 --> 06:40:47,272
We didn't say anything.

4552
06:40:47,398 --> 06:40:50,776
We just looked at each other,

4553
06:40:50,902 --> 06:40:56,823
and each of us thought,

4554
06:40:57,367 --> 06:40:59,243
"Tomorrow...

4555
06:41:01,663 --> 06:41:04,915
"...the hunger will end."

4556
06:41:08,503 --> 06:41:11,505
At that period,

4557
06:41:12,632 --> 06:41:17,511
we were actively planning the rebellion.

4558
06:41:18,388 --> 06:41:22,140
We all wanted to survive
until the rebellion.

4559
06:41:28,022 --> 06:41:32,859
The trainloads came from
an assembly camp in Saloniki.

4560
06:41:34,279 --> 06:41:38,907
They'd brought in Jews
from Bulgaria, Macedonia.

4561
06:41:40,827 --> 06:41:42,578
These were rich people.

4562
06:41:42,704 --> 06:41:46,707
The passenger cars bulged
with possessions.

4563
06:41:50,628 --> 06:41:57,593
Then an awful feeling gripped us,

4564
06:41:58,219 --> 06:42:00,512
all of us, my companions
as well as myself.

4565
06:42:00,638 --> 06:42:06,393
A feeling of helplessness,

4566
06:42:06,519 --> 06:42:09,646
a feeling of shame.

4567
06:42:11,858 --> 06:42:15,152
For we threw ourselves
on their food.

4568
06:42:15,778 --> 06:42:23,160
A detail brought a crate
full of crackers,

4569
06:42:23,786 --> 06:42:26,496
another full of jam.

4570
06:42:26,623 --> 06:42:30,792
They deliberately dropped the crates,

4571
06:42:31,919 --> 06:42:34,630
falling over each other,

4572
06:42:34,756 --> 06:42:41,845
filling their mouths
with crackers and jam.

4573
06:42:51,064 --> 06:42:56,818
The trainloads from the Balkans
brought us

4574
06:42:56,944 --> 06:42:59,571
to a terrible realisation...

4575
06:43:03,493 --> 06:43:06,161
RICHARD GLAZAR

4576
06:43:06,788 --> 06:43:10,666
We were the workers
in the Treblinka factory,

4577
06:43:11,209 --> 06:43:13,377
and our lives depended

4578
06:43:13,920 --> 06:43:18,840
on the whole
manufacturing process,

4579
06:43:19,592 --> 06:43:23,136
that is, the slaughtering process
at Treblinka.

4580
06:43:28,351 --> 06:43:32,896
(Lanzmann)
This realisation came suddenly

4581
06:43:33,022 --> 06:43:35,232
with the fresh trainloads?

4582
06:43:35,358 --> 06:43:38,193
Maybe it wasn't so sudden,

4583
06:43:39,237 --> 06:43:42,906
but it was only
with the Balkans trainloads

4584
06:43:43,032 --> 06:43:45,659
that it became...

4585
06:43:47,829 --> 06:43:51,748
...so stark to us, unadorned.

4586
06:43:52,333 --> 06:43:54,209
Why?

4587
06:43:54,752 --> 06:43:58,255
24,000 people,

4588
06:44:01,175 --> 06:44:06,054
probably with not a sick person
among them,

4589
06:44:09,559 --> 06:44:13,979
not an invalid,
all healthy and robust.

4590
06:44:14,856 --> 06:44:18,942
I recall watching them
from our barracks.

4591
06:44:20,194 --> 06:44:24,531
They were already naked,
milling among their baggage.

4592
06:44:24,657 --> 06:44:26,867
And David...

4593
06:44:27,535 --> 06:44:29,870
David Bratt said to me,

4594
06:44:30,371 --> 06:44:32,038
"Maccabees!

4595
06:44:32,165 --> 06:44:35,542
The Maccabees have arrived
in Treblinka!"

4596
06:44:39,297 --> 06:44:43,800
Sturdy, physically strong people,

4597
06:44:46,095 --> 06:44:48,722
unlike the others...

4598
06:44:49,724 --> 06:44:54,227
- Fighters?
- Yes, they could have been fighters.

4599
06:44:58,024 --> 06:45:00,567
It was staggering for us,

4600
06:45:01,235 --> 06:45:06,406
for these men and women,
all splendid...

4601
06:45:08,659 --> 06:45:12,496
...were wholly unaware
of what was in store for them.

4602
06:45:12,622 --> 06:45:15,123
Wholly unaware.

4603
06:45:20,671 --> 06:45:26,343
Never before had things gone
so smoothly and quickly.

4604
06:45:26,469 --> 06:45:28,053
Never.

4605
06:45:32,809 --> 06:45:36,061
We felt ashamed,

4606
06:45:36,187 --> 06:45:42,526
and also that this couldn't go on,
that something had to happen.

4607
06:45:44,779 --> 06:45:48,031
Not just a few people acting

4608
06:45:48,908 --> 06:45:51,993
but all of us.

4609
06:46:00,670 --> 06:46:06,967
The idea was almost ripe
back in November 1942.

4610
06:46:11,097 --> 06:46:16,059
Beginning in November '42,

4611
06:46:16,894 --> 06:46:19,020
we'd noticed

4612
06:46:19,146 --> 06:46:23,441
that we were being "spared,"

4613
06:46:24,485 --> 06:46:26,862
in quotes.

4614
06:46:27,947 --> 06:46:30,824
We noticed it

4615
06:46:30,950 --> 06:46:33,118
and we also learned

4616
06:46:33,619 --> 06:46:39,332
that Stangl, the commandant,
wanted for efficiency's sake

4617
06:46:39,458 --> 06:46:42,460
to hang onto men
who were already trained,

4618
06:46:43,546 --> 06:46:47,716
specialists in the various tasks:

4619
06:46:47,842 --> 06:46:50,218
sorters, corpse-haulers,

4620
06:46:50,344 --> 06:46:55,348
barbers who cut the women's hair,

4621
06:46:55,474 --> 06:46:56,975
and so on.

4622
06:47:01,898 --> 06:47:09,237
This in fact is what later
gave us the chance

4623
06:47:09,864 --> 06:47:11,531
to prepare,

4624
06:47:11,657 --> 06:47:15,160
to or ganise the uprising.

4625
06:47:26,547 --> 06:47:28,673
We had a plan

4626
06:47:28,799 --> 06:47:33,219
worked out in January 1943,

4627
06:47:33,930 --> 06:47:37,891
code-named "The Time."

4628
06:47:40,019 --> 06:47:41,937
At a set time,

4629
06:47:42,063 --> 06:47:49,027
we were to attack the SS everywhere,

4630
06:47:50,029 --> 06:47:55,116
seize their weapons
and attack the Kommandantur.

4631
06:47:57,745 --> 06:48:00,914
But we couldn't do it,

4632
06:48:01,040 --> 06:48:05,961
because things were
at a standstill in the camp,

4633
06:48:06,545 --> 06:48:09,965
and because typhus
had already broken out.

4634
06:48:33,906 --> 06:48:38,368
(Muller) In the autumn of 1943,

4635
06:48:39,745 --> 06:48:45,750
when it was clear to all of us

4636
06:48:46,669 --> 06:48:50,005
that no one would help us

4637
06:48:51,632 --> 06:48:54,718
unless we helped ourselves,

4638
06:48:57,304 --> 06:49:01,266
a key question faced us all.

4639
06:49:03,561 --> 06:49:06,938
For us in the "special detail,"

4640
06:49:07,690 --> 06:49:11,151
was there any chance
to halt this wave of extermination

4641
06:49:11,652 --> 06:49:15,321
and still save our lives?

4642
06:49:22,538 --> 06:49:27,500
We could see only one:

4643
06:49:29,712 --> 06:49:34,090
armed rebellion.

4644
06:49:38,512 --> 06:49:41,014
We thought

4645
06:49:41,974 --> 06:49:47,020
that if we could get hold
of a few weapons...

4646
06:49:50,191 --> 06:49:55,487
...and secure the participation
of all the inmates...

4647
06:49:57,948 --> 06:50:00,033
...throughout the camp,

4648
06:50:00,159 --> 06:50:03,745
there was a chance of success.

4649
06:50:05,998 --> 06:50:09,000
That was the essential thing.

4650
06:50:12,004 --> 06:50:15,256
That's why our liaison men

4651
06:50:16,383 --> 06:50:22,806
contacted the leaders
of the Resistance movement,

4652
06:50:22,932 --> 06:50:24,557
first in Birkenau,

4653
06:50:24,683 --> 06:50:27,268
then in Auschwitz I,

4654
06:50:29,730 --> 06:50:33,608
so the revolt could be
coordinated everywhere.

4655
06:50:38,697 --> 06:50:40,406
FILIP MULLER

4656
06:50:40,533 --> 06:50:43,118
The answer came

4657
06:50:43,244 --> 06:50:47,330
that the Resistance command
in Auschwitz I

4658
06:50:47,456 --> 06:50:50,500
agreed with our plan

4659
06:50:51,252 --> 06:50:55,922
and would join with us.

4660
06:51:05,015 --> 06:51:09,811
Unfortunately,
among the Resistance leaders,

4661
06:51:11,105 --> 06:51:15,191
there were very few Jews.

4662
06:51:16,193 --> 06:51:19,070
Most were political prisoners

4663
06:51:20,114 --> 06:51:23,199
whose lives weren't at stake,

4664
06:51:24,410 --> 06:51:28,329
and for whom each day of life
lived through

4665
06:51:28,455 --> 06:51:33,877
increased their chances of survival.

4666
06:51:35,087 --> 06:51:39,716
For us in the "special detail,"
it was the opposite.

4667
06:51:46,473 --> 06:51:49,893
RUDOLF VRBA

4668
06:51:50,978 --> 06:51:56,399
Auschwitz and Birkenau,
apart from being a Hinrichtung centre,

4669
06:51:56,525 --> 06:51:59,277
a mass-murder centre,

4670
06:52:00,154 --> 06:52:02,864
was a normal concentration camp too,

4671
06:52:03,991 --> 06:52:07,535
which had its order,
like Mauthausen,

4672
06:52:07,661 --> 06:52:09,370
like Buchenwald,

4673
06:52:09,496 --> 06:52:11,998
like Dachau, like Sachsenhausen.

4674
06:52:15,127 --> 06:52:17,212
But whereas in Mauthausen

4675
06:52:17,338 --> 06:52:20,924
the main product
of prisoners' work was stone,

4676
06:52:21,050 --> 06:52:23,176
there was a big stone quarry,

4677
06:52:23,302 --> 06:52:26,512
the product in Auschwitz was death.

4678
06:52:26,972 --> 06:52:32,602
Everything was geared
to keep the crematoria running.

4679
06:52:33,812 --> 06:52:35,021
This was the aim.

4680
06:52:35,147 --> 06:52:39,317
This means the prisoners would work
on the road leading to the crematoria.

4681
06:52:39,443 --> 06:52:41,736
They would build the crematoria.

4682
06:52:42,571 --> 06:52:46,532
They would build all barracks
necessary for keeping prisoners.

4683
06:52:46,659 --> 06:52:48,368
And, of course, apart from that,

4684
06:52:48,494 --> 06:52:51,371
there was an element of a normal
German concentration camp,

4685
06:52:51,497 --> 06:52:55,667
because the Krupp and Siemens factories
moved in and utilised slave labour.

4686
06:52:55,793 --> 06:53:00,046
So the Krupp factories and
Siemens factories were built partly

4687
06:53:00,172 --> 06:53:03,007
directly within the concentration camp
Auschwitz-Birkenau.

4688
06:53:03,550 --> 06:53:07,095
AUSCHWITZ - BIRKENAU

4689
06:53:07,221 --> 06:53:10,598
The tradition in
the concentration camp was

4690
06:53:10,724 --> 06:53:14,727
that there was a considerable
amount of political prisoners,

4691
06:53:16,105 --> 06:53:19,440
trade unionists, Social Democrats,

4692
06:53:19,566 --> 06:53:21,401
Communists,

4693
06:53:21,527 --> 06:53:24,487
ex-fighters from Spain.

4694
06:53:28,242 --> 06:53:31,035
What happened was
a very peculiar development.

4695
06:53:33,914 --> 06:53:37,625
The Resistance leadership in Auschwitz

4696
06:53:38,085 --> 06:53:41,379
was concentrated in the hands of...

4697
06:53:43,173 --> 06:53:45,633
...German-speaking anti-Nazis,

4698
06:53:46,552 --> 06:53:49,012
who were German by birth,

4699
06:53:49,888 --> 06:53:54,183
were considered racially pure
by the Nazi hierarchy.

4700
06:53:56,603 --> 06:54:00,273
They got a bit better treatment
than the rest of the camp.

4701
06:54:01,066 --> 06:54:04,027
I don't say that
they were treated with gloves.

4702
06:54:05,279 --> 06:54:08,990
But they managed, with time,

4703
06:54:09,116 --> 06:54:14,704
to gain influence over various
Nazi dignitaries from the SS

4704
06:54:16,874 --> 06:54:19,584
and to use it in a way

4705
06:54:21,211 --> 06:54:25,214
which led systematically
to an improvement of conditions

4706
06:54:25,341 --> 06:54:28,259
within the concentration camp itself.

4707
06:54:38,854 --> 06:54:42,482
Whereas, in 1943...'42,

4708
06:54:43,192 --> 06:54:47,320
in Birkenau,
in December and January,

4709
06:54:48,322 --> 06:54:52,533
a death rate of400 prisoners
per day was common,

4710
06:54:54,244 --> 06:54:56,746
by May 1943,

4711
06:54:56,872 --> 06:54:59,707
not only because of the weather
improvement,

4712
06:54:59,833 --> 06:55:03,628
but due to the activities
of the Resistance movement,

4713
06:55:04,838 --> 06:55:07,382
the improvement was so marked

4714
06:55:07,508 --> 06:55:13,388
that the mortality grossly decreased
in the concentration camp.

4715
06:55:17,184 --> 06:55:21,562
And they considered it
a great victory on their side.

4716
06:55:32,366 --> 06:55:35,493
And that improvement of living conditions

4717
06:55:36,662 --> 06:55:38,955
within the concentration camp

4718
06:55:40,916 --> 06:55:48,381
was, perhaps, not so against the policy
of the higher echelons ofSS ranks,

4719
06:55:49,007 --> 06:55:54,053
as long as it did not interfere
with the objective of the camp.

4720
06:55:55,305 --> 06:55:59,475
This means production of death
on the arrivals,

4721
06:55:59,601 --> 06:56:02,145
which were not prisoners of the camp.

4722
06:56:06,024 --> 06:56:08,734
There was a rule that if there are
those people in the transport

4723
06:56:08,861 --> 06:56:11,654
who can be utilised for work,

4724
06:56:11,780 --> 06:56:13,573
who are in good physical condition,

4725
06:56:13,699 --> 06:56:16,451
they are not old, they are not
too young, they are not children,

4726
06:56:16,577 --> 06:56:19,745
they are not women with children,
et cetera, they look healthy,

4727
06:56:19,872 --> 06:56:22,748
they should come
into the concentration camp

4728
06:56:22,875 --> 06:56:27,211
for replacement of those who were
dying in the concentration camp,

4729
06:56:27,337 --> 06:56:28,921
as a fresh force.

4730
06:56:30,090 --> 06:56:33,301
And I could see
the following discussions.

4731
06:56:33,427 --> 06:56:35,428
I once overheard...

4732
06:56:35,929 --> 06:56:38,347
A transport came from...

4733
06:56:38,474 --> 06:56:40,641
I think it was from Holland
or from Belgium.

4734
06:56:40,767 --> 06:56:43,853
I do not guarantee which one it was.

4735
06:56:43,979 --> 06:56:47,398
And the SS doctor selected a group

4736
06:56:47,524 --> 06:56:50,443
of well-looking Jewish prisoners,
newcomers,

4737
06:56:50,569 --> 06:56:53,779
from the whole transport,
which would be gassed,

4738
06:56:53,906 --> 06:56:55,865
which was gassed.

4739
06:56:55,991 --> 06:56:59,452
But the representative SS
from the concentration camp

4740
06:56:59,578 --> 06:57:01,579
said he doesn't want them.

4741
06:57:02,831 --> 06:57:06,125
And there was a discussion
between them which I could overhear,

4742
06:57:06,251 --> 06:57:08,878
in which the doctor was saying,
"Why don't you take them?

4743
06:57:09,004 --> 06:57:12,965
"They are... (speaks German)"

4744
06:57:13,091 --> 06:57:19,555
This means: "Jews very, very
nourished on Dutch cheese."

4745
06:57:19,681 --> 06:57:21,974
"They would be good for the camp."

4746
06:57:22,100 --> 06:57:24,977
And Fries, it was,
Hauptscharführer Fries answered him.

4747
06:57:25,103 --> 06:57:26,854
(Speaks German)

4748
06:57:30,859 --> 06:57:33,236
"I can't take those people,

4749
06:57:33,362 --> 06:57:38,783
"because nowadays they don't
kick the bucket so fast in the camp."

4750
06:57:38,909 --> 06:57:41,369
- This means they don't die fast enough?
- That's right.

4751
06:57:41,495 --> 06:57:47,792
In other words, he explained that
the stand of the camp was, say, 30,000.

4752
06:57:49,127 --> 06:57:53,422
If 500 or 5,000 died,

4753
06:57:53,549 --> 06:57:56,342
they were replaced by a new force

4754
06:57:56,927 --> 06:58:00,346
from the Jewish transport which came in.

4755
06:58:00,472 --> 06:58:02,557
But if only a thousand died,

4756
06:58:03,684 --> 06:58:08,187
well, only a thousand were replaced,
and more went into the gas chamber.

4757
06:58:09,022 --> 06:58:15,403
So, the improvement of the conditions
within the concentration camp itself

4758
06:58:17,155 --> 06:58:20,116
made a higher death rate

4759
06:58:20,242 --> 06:58:23,744
in the gas chamber,
straight into the gas chamber.

4760
06:58:23,870 --> 06:58:26,038
It decreased the death rate

4761
06:58:26,748 --> 06:58:29,417
among the prisoners
in the concentration camp.

4762
06:58:29,543 --> 06:58:31,002
So, it was clear to me

4763
06:58:31,128 --> 06:58:33,754
that the improvement of the situation
of the concentration camp

4764
06:58:33,880 --> 06:58:41,137
does not impede the process
of mass executions

4765
06:58:41,847 --> 06:58:45,433
of those people
who were brought into the camp.

4766
06:58:45,559 --> 06:58:48,978
Consequently, my idea, then,
of the Resistance movement,

4767
06:58:49,104 --> 06:58:51,814
of the sense
of the Resistance movement, was

4768
06:58:51,940 --> 06:58:57,987
that the improvement of the conditions
within the camp is only a first step,

4769
06:58:58,113 --> 06:59:02,325
that the Resistance movement
actually wants... is aware...

4770
06:59:02,451 --> 06:59:08,372
that the main thing is to stop
the process of mass execution,

4771
06:59:08,999 --> 06:59:10,791
the machinery of the killing,

4772
06:59:10,917 --> 06:59:15,129
and that, therefore,
it is a time of preparation,

4773
06:59:15,255 --> 06:59:17,214
of gathering of forces

4774
06:59:17,341 --> 06:59:22,720
for attacking the SS from inside,

4775
06:59:23,472 --> 06:59:25,973
even if it is a suicidal mission.

4776
06:59:26,767 --> 06:59:31,062
But destroy the machinery.

4777
06:59:31,188 --> 06:59:33,230
And in this respect,

4778
06:59:33,357 --> 06:59:37,735
I would consider it
as a suitable objective,

4779
06:59:38,487 --> 06:59:40,529
worthy objective.

4780
06:59:41,698 --> 06:59:45,117
And... it was also clear to me

4781
06:59:45,243 --> 06:59:48,079
that such an objective
cannot be achieved overnight,

4782
06:59:48,205 --> 06:59:51,916
there is necessary a lot of preparation
and a lot of circumstances

4783
06:59:52,042 --> 06:59:56,087
about which, being only a small cog
in the whole machinery of resistance,

4784
06:59:56,213 --> 06:59:58,881
I could not know or decide.

4785
06:59:59,007 --> 07:00:02,551
But it was clear in my mind

4786
07:00:02,678 --> 07:00:07,431
that the only objective
of any resistance

4787
07:00:07,557 --> 07:00:13,104
within a concentration camp
of the type of Auschwitz

4788
07:00:13,230 --> 07:00:16,857
has to be different from that
in Mauthausen or in Dachau.

4789
07:00:17,567 --> 07:00:19,902
Because, whereas
in Mauthausen and in Dachau,

4790
07:00:20,028 --> 07:00:25,908
this policy of resistance improved
the survival rate of political prisoners,

4791
07:00:26,034 --> 07:00:28,536
the same very noble policy

4792
07:00:28,662 --> 07:00:33,290
improved and oiled
the machinery of mass annihilation,

4793
07:00:33,417 --> 07:00:37,294
as practised by the Nazis
within the concentration camp.

4794
07:00:38,797 --> 07:00:40,840
(Train clacking)

4795
07:01:21,298 --> 07:01:23,340
(Woman, in English)
In There sienstadt,

4796
07:01:23,467 --> 07:01:26,969
this time it reached us,
the transport to the east.

4797
07:01:27,095 --> 07:01:28,929
(Train whistle blows)

4798
07:01:34,561 --> 07:01:38,856
We were loaded
into these wagons for cattle.

4799
07:01:39,733 --> 07:01:43,736
RUTH ELIAS - ISRAEL
Deported from There sienstadt

4800
07:01:47,365 --> 07:01:51,952
And it went for two days...

4801
07:01:54,414 --> 07:01:56,290
...and one night.

4802
07:01:56,416 --> 07:02:00,586
- (Lanzmann) In wintertime?
- The second day... It was December.

4803
07:02:00,712 --> 07:02:05,049
But it was warm inside,
because we made the heat.

4804
07:02:05,175 --> 07:02:10,596
We heated it up with our temperature,
body temperature.

4805
07:02:13,558 --> 07:02:18,145
One evening,
the train came to a stop,

4806
07:02:19,231 --> 07:02:21,649
the next day in the evening.

4807
07:02:23,235 --> 07:02:27,321
And the doors were opened.

4808
07:02:28,532 --> 07:02:31,659
And there was a terrible screaming.

4809
07:02:31,785 --> 07:02:33,953
"Out! Out! Out! Out!"

4810
07:02:35,956 --> 07:02:40,209
We were shocked. We didn't know
what's going on, where we are.

4811
07:02:42,045 --> 07:02:45,089
We saw only SS with dogs.

4812
07:02:46,132 --> 07:02:52,346
And we saw, in the distance,
in symmetric lights there,

4813
07:02:53,181 --> 07:02:55,641
but we didn't know where we are,

4814
07:02:55,767 --> 07:02:58,978
what the lights,
the thousands of lights, were meaning.

4815
07:02:59,104 --> 07:03:01,397
We only heard this shouting.

4816
07:03:02,065 --> 07:03:04,733
- "Out! Out! Out!"
- (Lanzmann) "Raus!"

4817
07:03:06,069 --> 07:03:08,362
Yes, just exactly.

4818
07:03:08,947 --> 07:03:11,448
And, "Schnell! Schnell! Schnell!"

4819
07:03:13,326 --> 07:03:15,578
Out we came of these wagons.

4820
07:03:15,704 --> 07:03:17,872
We had to line up.

4821
07:03:18,915 --> 07:03:25,462
And there were some people
with striped uniforms.

4822
07:03:26,172 --> 07:03:29,049
We didn't know what the stripes are.

4823
07:03:29,509 --> 07:03:34,680
And I asked one in Czech,
"Where are we?"

4824
07:03:34,806 --> 07:03:37,474
And it was a Polish
who understood my Czech,

4825
07:03:37,601 --> 07:03:39,602
and he told me, "Auschwitz,"

4826
07:03:39,728 --> 07:03:42,313
but it didn't mean anything to me.

4827
07:03:42,439 --> 07:03:43,939
What is Auschwitz?

4828
07:03:44,065 --> 07:03:46,901
I didn't know about Auschwitz anything.

4829
07:03:57,537 --> 07:04:03,584
We were led into a so-called family camp,
Familienlager B Zwei B,

4830
07:04:03,710 --> 07:04:08,714
children, men and women together,

4831
07:04:10,008 --> 07:04:13,886
without any selection beforehand.

4832
07:04:17,599 --> 07:04:20,809
Men from the Männerlager,

4833
07:04:22,479 --> 07:04:26,941
they came in and told us

4834
07:04:27,067 --> 07:04:31,695
that Auschwitz is a VerniChtungslager,

4835
07:04:33,198 --> 07:04:35,824
where they are burning people,

4836
07:04:38,036 --> 07:04:40,329
and we didn't believe.

4837
07:04:50,048 --> 07:04:53,717
In this camp,
there was already a transport

4838
07:04:53,843 --> 07:04:57,429
who left There sienstadt in September,

4839
07:04:57,555 --> 07:05:00,015
three months before us.

4840
07:05:00,141 --> 07:05:03,894
They didn't believe it too,
because we were all together,

4841
07:05:04,020 --> 07:05:06,772
and nobody was taken away,
and nobody was burned.

4842
07:05:06,898 --> 07:05:09,149
We didn't believe it.

4843
07:05:23,331 --> 07:05:27,001
(Vrba) Those Czech Jews
from There sienstadt,

4844
07:05:27,127 --> 07:05:29,628
from the ghetto near Prague,

4845
07:05:29,754 --> 07:05:33,257
came into one particular part
of the camp,

4846
07:05:33,383 --> 07:05:37,970
which was called
"Bauabschnitt Zwei B," "IIB."

4847
07:05:39,723 --> 07:05:43,851
At that time, I was working
as a registrar in II A.

4848
07:05:46,438 --> 07:05:52,192
The division between II A and II B
was only one electrical fence,

4849
07:05:53,319 --> 07:05:58,824
through which nobody could climb,
but you could speak through it.

4850
07:06:05,457 --> 07:06:08,500
In the morning,
I could sort out the whole situation.

4851
07:06:08,626 --> 07:06:12,171
There were a number
of surprising circumstances.

4852
07:06:14,799 --> 07:06:20,179
The families...
this means men, women and children,

4853
07:06:20,305 --> 07:06:23,432
were taken together,

4854
07:06:23,558 --> 07:06:25,601
and nobody was gassed.

4855
07:06:28,897 --> 07:06:32,066
They took with them
their luggage into the camp,

4856
07:06:35,445 --> 07:06:39,948
and they were not shorn,
their hair was left.

4857
07:06:46,831 --> 07:06:49,958
So they were in a different position

4858
07:06:50,085 --> 07:06:53,420
than anything
which I have seen until now.

4859
07:06:56,508 --> 07:06:59,635
I didn't know what to think about it,
and nobody knew.

4860
07:06:59,761 --> 07:07:05,099
But in the main registrar's office,

4861
07:07:05,225 --> 07:07:10,646
it was known that all those people
have got special cards,

4862
07:07:10,772 --> 07:07:13,315
which had a remark on them:

4863
07:07:15,068 --> 07:07:19,154
"SB mit sechsmonatiger Quarantäne."

4864
07:07:20,698 --> 07:07:23,075
"SB," we knew what it means:

4865
07:07:24,327 --> 07:07:28,455
"Sonderbehandlung"
which meant "gassing".

4866
07:07:30,333 --> 07:07:33,669
And "Quarantäne"
also we knew what it means.

4867
07:07:41,219 --> 07:07:44,388
But it didn't make sense to us

4868
07:07:46,349 --> 07:07:49,393
that somebody should be kept
in the camp for six months

4869
07:07:49,519 --> 07:07:52,229
in order to be gassed
after six months.

4870
07:07:55,692 --> 07:08:01,155
Therefore, it was left
open to interpretation

4871
07:08:01,281 --> 07:08:06,618
if "SB - Sonderbehandlung"
always means death in gas chamber

4872
07:08:06,744 --> 07:08:09,163
or if perhaps it has got
a double meaning.

4873
07:08:13,668 --> 07:08:19,590
And the six months were supposed
to elapse on March 7.

4874
07:08:26,806 --> 07:08:31,018
In December, and I think
it was close to December 20,

4875
07:08:31,144 --> 07:08:35,063
another transport
from There sienstadt came,

4876
07:08:35,190 --> 07:08:38,358
also about 4,000 people strong,

4877
07:08:38,484 --> 07:08:44,531
which was added to the first transport
into the Camp B ll B.

4878
07:08:44,657 --> 07:08:47,034
Also, men, women and children
were left together.

4879
07:08:47,160 --> 07:08:50,162
Families were not torn apart,
old people, young people.

4880
07:08:50,288 --> 07:08:53,207
Everything remained intact.

4881
07:08:53,333 --> 07:08:56,793
And their hair was left,
and their personal property was left.

4882
07:08:56,920 --> 07:09:00,255
They could wear civil clothes,
whatever they had.

4883
07:09:00,381 --> 07:09:04,426
They were given
a sort of a different treatment.

4884
07:09:05,053 --> 07:09:08,305
A school was arranged
for the children in a special barrack.

4885
07:09:08,431 --> 07:09:11,475
The children soon made a theatre there.

4886
07:09:12,143 --> 07:09:16,980
Also it was not really a very comfortable
life, because they were cramped,

4887
07:09:17,106 --> 07:09:21,318
and, from the first 4,000 people
during the first six months,

4888
07:09:21,444 --> 07:09:23,862
the mortality was about a thousand.

4889
07:09:23,988 --> 07:09:26,531
- One thousand died.
- (Lanzmann) Were they obliged to work?

4890
07:09:26,658 --> 07:09:29,493
Yes, they had to work,
but only inside their camp.

4891
07:09:29,619 --> 07:09:31,453
They were making a new camp road,

4892
07:09:31,579 --> 07:09:35,123
and they were ornamenting
the barracks.

4893
07:09:35,250 --> 07:09:37,626
They were induced to write letters,

4894
07:09:38,294 --> 07:09:40,796
induced to write letters by the SS,

4895
07:09:40,922 --> 07:09:43,131
to their relatives
in the There sienstadt ghetto,

4896
07:09:43,258 --> 07:09:45,884
saying that they are all together,
et cetera.

4897
07:09:46,010 --> 07:09:47,928
They had better conditions of food,
for instance?

4898
07:09:48,054 --> 07:09:52,349
Definitely better conditions of food,
better conditions of treatment.

4899
07:09:52,475 --> 07:09:55,435
I mean,
the conditions were so good

4900
07:09:55,561 --> 07:09:57,229
that, within six months,

4901
07:09:57,355 --> 07:10:01,233
including the old people and children,
only one quarter of them died.

4902
07:10:01,359 --> 07:10:04,861
I mean, this was a very unusually
good condition in Auschwitz.

4903
07:10:06,364 --> 07:10:08,740
And, uh, to the children's theatre,

4904
07:10:08,866 --> 07:10:12,369
the SS used to come there
and play with the children.

4905
07:10:12,495 --> 07:10:15,122
Personal relationships were struck up.

4906
07:10:15,873 --> 07:10:19,418
And, of course,
one of my tasks as a registrar

4907
07:10:19,544 --> 07:10:23,380
was to find out the possibility
of people who are resistance...

4908
07:10:23,506 --> 07:10:27,884
who have got a mind for resistance,
and to strike up with them a relationship,

4909
07:10:28,011 --> 07:10:29,594
and contact, and...

4910
07:10:29,721 --> 07:10:32,597
- You were already a member of...?
- The Resistance. Yes, yes.

4911
07:10:32,724 --> 07:10:34,641
That was my job as a registrar,

4912
07:10:34,767 --> 07:10:37,728
that I had the possibility of moving
a bit around under various pretexts,

4913
07:10:37,854 --> 07:10:42,774
to carry papers from my part
of the camp into the Central Registry,

4914
07:10:42,900 --> 07:10:46,528
and, at that occasion, to meet
other people and give them messages,

4915
07:10:46,654 --> 07:10:48,363
take messages from them.

4916
07:10:48,489 --> 07:10:52,617
And one of my tasks then was,
because I was closest to this camp,

4917
07:10:52,744 --> 07:10:58,915
to find out if, among the members
of this transport,

4918
07:10:59,042 --> 07:11:05,630
there are people who are suitable
for organising a Resistance nucleus.

4919
07:11:08,718 --> 07:11:15,349
We soon found several ex-members
of the International Brigade in Spain.

4920
07:11:16,267 --> 07:11:22,481
And so, in no time,
I had a list of about 40 people

4921
07:11:23,524 --> 07:11:27,569
who had a record from the past

4922
07:11:27,695 --> 07:11:33,325
of developing some sort of resistance
against the Nazis.

4923
07:11:42,210 --> 07:11:47,547
A special figure emerged
among this family camp,

4924
07:11:48,257 --> 07:11:50,509
a man called Freddy Hirsch.

4925
07:11:51,928 --> 07:11:54,096
He was a German Jew

4926
07:11:54,639 --> 07:11:57,682
who emigrated from Germany to Prague.

4927
07:12:00,353 --> 07:12:06,733
Freddy Hirsch showed
a considerable amount of interest

4928
07:12:06,859 --> 07:12:09,403
for the education
of the children who were there.

4929
07:12:10,071 --> 07:12:12,489
He knew each child by name.

4930
07:12:14,492 --> 07:12:20,789
And, by his upright behaviour
and obvious human dignity,

4931
07:12:22,125 --> 07:12:24,459
he became a sort of a spiritual leader

4932
07:12:24,585 --> 07:12:26,670
of this whole family camp.

4933
07:12:33,052 --> 07:12:36,638
Now, March 7th started to near,

4934
07:12:37,348 --> 07:12:40,642
and this was supposed
to give us the signal

4935
07:12:41,561 --> 07:12:43,687
of what is supposed to happen,

4936
07:12:48,276 --> 07:12:51,194
but what, we did not know for sure.

4937
07:12:59,829 --> 07:13:03,039
CREMATORIUM V

4938
07:13:04,292 --> 07:13:06,877
(Muller, in German)
At the end of February,

4939
07:13:07,003 --> 07:13:11,506
I was in a night squad
at Crematorium V.

4940
07:13:14,760 --> 07:13:16,970
Around midnight,

4941
07:13:18,222 --> 07:13:22,726
there appeared a man
from the political section:

4942
07:13:22,852 --> 07:13:25,479
Oberscharführer Hustek.

4943
07:13:29,233 --> 07:13:33,695
He handed Oberscharführer Voss
a note.

4944
07:13:41,704 --> 07:13:49,544
Voss was then in charge
of the 4 crematoria.

4945
07:13:53,674 --> 07:13:58,845
I saw Voss unfold the note

4946
07:14:03,976 --> 07:14:08,813
and talk to himself, saying,
"Sure, always Voss.

4947
07:14:09,357 --> 07:14:15,070
"What'd they do without Voss?
How can we do it?"

4948
07:14:15,196 --> 07:14:17,113
That's how he talked to himself.

4949
07:14:17,240 --> 07:14:21,243
Suddenly he told me,
"Go and get the kapos."

4950
07:14:21,369 --> 07:14:25,789
I fetched the kapos, kapo Schloime,

4951
07:14:26,332 --> 07:14:29,000
and kapo Wacek.

4952
07:14:29,126 --> 07:14:32,963
They came in, and he asked them,

4953
07:14:33,089 --> 07:14:34,965
"How many pieces are left?"

4954
07:14:35,091 --> 07:14:38,009
By "pieces" he meant bodies.

4955
07:14:38,135 --> 07:14:42,597
They told him, "Around 500 pieces."

4956
07:14:43,599 --> 07:14:48,353
He said, "By morning,
those 500 pieces must be...

4957
07:14:51,983 --> 07:14:54,234
"...reduced to ashes.

4958
07:14:55,444 --> 07:14:59,864
"You're sure it's 500?" he asked.
"Just about," they said.

4959
07:14:59,991 --> 07:15:03,952
"Arseholes!
What do you mean, 'just about'?"

4960
07:15:04,704 --> 07:15:07,289
Then he left

4961
07:15:07,415 --> 07:15:12,294
for the "undressing room"
to see for himself.

4962
07:15:12,420 --> 07:15:14,129
(Lanzmann)
Where the bodies were?

4963
07:15:14,255 --> 07:15:16,673
They were piled there.

4964
07:15:16,799 --> 07:15:20,176
At Crematorium V,
the "undressing room" also served

4965
07:15:20,303 --> 07:15:22,304
as a warehouse for bodies.

4966
07:15:22,430 --> 07:15:24,014
(Lanzmann) After the gassing?

4967
07:15:24,140 --> 07:15:28,727
After the gassing,
the bodies were dragged there.

4968
07:15:28,853 --> 07:15:31,813
Voss went there to check.

4969
07:15:31,939 --> 07:15:38,737
He forgot the note,
leaving it on the table.

4970
07:15:39,864 --> 07:15:44,159
I quickly scanned it,

4971
07:15:45,161 --> 07:15:48,705
and I was shocked by what I read.

4972
07:15:50,249 --> 07:15:53,710
BIRKENAU
THE LAKE OF ASHES

4973
07:15:59,300 --> 07:16:04,262
(Muller) The crematorium was
to be got ready

4974
07:16:06,349 --> 07:16:12,812
for "special treatment"
of the Czech family camp.

4975
07:16:20,655 --> 07:16:25,659
In the morning,
when the day squad came on,

4976
07:16:26,994 --> 07:16:30,664
I ran into kapo Kaminski,

4977
07:16:31,290 --> 07:16:37,170
one of the Resistance leaders
in the "special detail",

4978
07:16:38,214 --> 07:16:41,424
and I told him the news.

4979
07:16:42,677 --> 07:16:44,552
He informed me

4980
07:16:45,846 --> 07:16:52,644
that Crematorium II
was also being prepared.

4981
07:16:52,770 --> 07:16:56,439
That the ovens were ready there, too.

4982
07:17:04,490 --> 07:17:07,117
And he exhorted me,

4983
07:17:07,243 --> 07:17:11,579
"You have friends
and fellow countrymen.

4984
07:17:13,207 --> 07:17:17,919
"Go and see them. They're locksmiths
and can move around,

4985
07:17:18,045 --> 07:17:21,631
"so they can go to Camp B II B.

4986
07:17:22,383 --> 07:17:25,385
"Tell them to warn these people

4987
07:17:25,511 --> 07:17:28,054
"of what's in store for them,

4988
07:17:28,180 --> 07:17:30,890
"and say that
if they defend themselves,

4989
07:17:31,016 --> 07:17:36,521
"we'll reduce the crematoria to ashes.

4990
07:17:37,732 --> 07:17:41,234
"And at Camp B II B,

4991
07:17:41,694 --> 07:17:44,279
they can immediately
burn down their barracks."

4992
07:17:49,368 --> 07:17:52,454
We were certain that the next night,

4993
07:17:52,580 --> 07:17:55,498
these people would be gassed.

4994
07:17:55,624 --> 07:18:00,712
But when no night squad went out,
we were relieved.

4995
07:18:02,423 --> 07:18:05,008
The deadline had been postponed

4996
07:18:05,843 --> 07:18:09,304
for a few days.

4997
07:18:09,430 --> 07:18:15,477
But many prisoners, including
the Czechs in the family camp,

4998
07:18:15,603 --> 07:18:21,065
accused us of spreading panic,
of having...

4999
07:18:23,235 --> 07:18:28,656
...of having circulated false reports.

5000
07:18:34,747 --> 07:18:37,123
(Vrba) Approximately
by the end of February,

5001
07:18:37,249 --> 07:18:40,251
a rumour was spread by the Nazis

5002
07:18:40,753 --> 07:18:45,089
that the family transport will be moved

5003
07:18:45,216 --> 07:18:47,425
to a place called Heydebreck.

5004
07:18:51,138 --> 07:18:55,767
The first move was to separate
the first family transport

5005
07:18:55,893 --> 07:18:57,977
from the second family transport,

5006
07:18:58,103 --> 07:19:00,688
by transferring them overnight

5007
07:19:02,775 --> 07:19:07,904
into the quarantine camp B II A,

5008
07:19:08,489 --> 07:19:10,698
where I was a registrar.

5009
07:19:12,117 --> 07:19:16,120
So I could now speak
with those people directly.

5010
07:19:22,419 --> 07:19:24,629
I talked to Freddy Hirsch specifically,

5011
07:19:24,755 --> 07:19:29,884
and I told him about the possibility
that the transport has been...

5012
07:19:30,010 --> 07:19:33,930
his transport, the family transport
of the Czechs...

5013
07:19:34,056 --> 07:19:36,391
has been transferred
to the quarantine camp

5014
07:19:37,393 --> 07:19:39,894
because of the possibility

5015
07:19:40,020 --> 07:19:45,233
of them being predestined
to be gassed on March 7th.

5016
07:19:47,528 --> 07:19:50,405
He asked me if I know that for sure.

5017
07:19:51,282 --> 07:19:55,285
And I said, "I do not know it for sure,
but it is a serious possibility,

5018
07:19:55,411 --> 07:19:59,914
"because there is no record
of any train going away

5019
07:20:00,875 --> 07:20:02,333
"from Auschwitz."

5020
07:20:02,459 --> 07:20:05,378
And, usually, the offices,
the registrars,

5021
07:20:05,504 --> 07:20:08,631
where the Resistance movement
had their people,

5022
07:20:08,757 --> 07:20:11,551
would get wind
of such an information,

5023
07:20:11,677 --> 07:20:14,053
of a transport being prepared
out from Auschwitz,

5024
07:20:14,179 --> 07:20:16,472
and there was no such information.

5025
07:20:16,599 --> 07:20:20,310
And I explained him the circumstances,
and I explained him what it means.

5026
07:20:20,436 --> 07:20:23,646
And the possibility, then, would arise

5027
07:20:23,772 --> 07:20:27,066
that, for the first time,
there are, in camp, people

5028
07:20:27,192 --> 07:20:30,069
who are relatively physically preserved,

5029
07:20:30,946 --> 07:20:35,158
who have some sort of a morale retained,

5030
07:20:35,951 --> 07:20:38,661
who are certain to go to die,

5031
07:20:38,787 --> 07:20:42,206
in other words, to be subject
to the normal execution procedure,

5032
07:20:42,333 --> 07:20:45,627
anonymous major execution
procedure, as usual,

5033
07:20:47,296 --> 07:20:51,049
and they will know it,
they can't be just tricked,

5034
07:20:51,592 --> 07:20:54,344
and that this is perhaps the time to act.

5035
07:20:55,054 --> 07:20:57,388
And the action, of course,

5036
07:20:59,725 --> 07:21:02,518
will have to come out from them.

5037
07:21:03,938 --> 07:21:07,315
Because there are others
whose death was imminent,

5038
07:21:07,441 --> 07:21:09,943
and those were the people
from the Sonderkommando

5039
07:21:10,069 --> 07:21:14,113
who worked in the crematorium,
which was periodically replaced.

5040
07:21:14,239 --> 07:21:16,324
And they showed a willingness,

5041
07:21:16,450 --> 07:21:22,080
that if the Czechs, before the gassing,
attack the SS, they will join them.

5042
07:21:25,417 --> 07:21:28,294
Freddy Hirsch objected.

5043
07:21:28,420 --> 07:21:30,296
He was very reasonable.

5044
07:21:30,422 --> 07:21:33,174
He said that
it doesn't make sense to him

5045
07:21:33,300 --> 07:21:35,385
that the Germans would keep them
for six months,

5046
07:21:35,511 --> 07:21:38,471
feeding the children
with milk and white bread,

5047
07:21:38,597 --> 07:21:41,099
in order to gas them after six months.

5048
07:21:46,730 --> 07:21:50,483
On the next day, I got the message,
again from the Resistance,

5049
07:21:52,027 --> 07:21:55,530
that it is sure that
they are going to be gassed,

5050
07:21:56,448 --> 07:21:59,867
that the Sonderkommando
already received the coal

5051
07:21:59,994 --> 07:22:02,495
for burning the transport.

5052
07:22:03,414 --> 07:22:05,415
The Sonderkommando knew exactly

5053
07:22:05,541 --> 07:22:08,543
how many people are going to be gassed,
what sort of people,

5054
07:22:08,669 --> 07:22:11,671
because there were
certain rules of work too.

5055
07:22:19,513 --> 07:22:24,892
So I called up again to Freddy
and, uh, explained to him

5056
07:22:25,853 --> 07:22:30,064
that, as far as this transport
is concerned, including him,

5057
07:22:31,358 --> 07:22:35,028
they are going to be gassed
in the next 48 hours.

5058
07:22:38,907 --> 07:22:44,328
So, he suddenly started to worry.

5059
07:22:44,455 --> 07:22:49,333
He said, "What happens to the children
if we start the uprising?"

5060
07:22:49,460 --> 07:22:51,460
He had a very close relationship
with the children.

5061
07:22:51,503 --> 07:22:54,422
- How many children?
- Could be about 100.

5062
07:22:55,758 --> 07:22:58,760
- Alive.
- And how many people able to fight?

5063
07:22:58,886 --> 07:23:02,346
Uh, well, the nucleus was about 30,

5064
07:23:02,848 --> 07:23:06,434
and now it was not necessary
to keep any precautions,

5065
07:23:06,560 --> 07:23:07,977
and this depends.

5066
07:23:08,103 --> 07:23:12,356
I mean, if it comes to fighting,
even an old woman can pick up a stone.

5067
07:23:12,483 --> 07:23:15,526
Anybody can fight.
I mean, this is difficult to predict.

5068
07:23:15,652 --> 07:23:18,279
But it was necessary
to have a nucleus,

5069
07:23:18,405 --> 07:23:21,365
and it was necessary
to have a leading personality.

5070
07:23:21,492 --> 07:23:24,494
You see, those are small details
which are extremely important.

5071
07:23:25,496 --> 07:23:28,498
He said to me,
"If we make the uprising,

5072
07:23:28,624 --> 07:23:31,084
"what is going to happen
to the children?

5073
07:23:31,877 --> 07:23:34,337
"Who is going to take care of them?"

5074
07:23:34,463 --> 07:23:35,963
I said, "The children?

5075
07:23:36,090 --> 07:23:40,551
"I cannot say anything except
that there is no way out for them.

5076
07:23:41,303 --> 07:23:45,264
"They will die whatsoever.
That's for sure.

5077
07:23:45,390 --> 07:23:47,600
"This we cannot prevent.

5078
07:23:47,726 --> 07:23:52,146
"The question what we can do is,
who is going to die with them,

5079
07:23:52,272 --> 07:23:54,941
"and how many SS are going
to die with them,

5080
07:23:55,067 --> 07:23:58,861
"and how will it impede
the whole machinery?

5081
07:23:58,987 --> 07:24:02,073
Plus, the possibility that a part,
during the uprising,

5082
07:24:02,199 --> 07:24:04,408
"will find their way out from the camp."

5083
07:24:05,244 --> 07:24:07,495
Which is possible in such a situation.

5084
07:24:08,580 --> 07:24:10,665
I mean, to break through the guards,

5085
07:24:10,791 --> 07:24:12,875
because, once the uprising starts,

5086
07:24:13,001 --> 07:24:16,170
some weapons can be expected
to be had.

5087
07:24:16,296 --> 07:24:18,005
And I explained to him that

5088
07:24:18,132 --> 07:24:23,052
there is absolutely no chance for him
or for anybody from that transport,

5089
07:24:23,178 --> 07:24:25,304
to the best of my knowledge

5090
07:24:25,430 --> 07:24:27,765
and everybody else's knowledge
whom I trust,

5091
07:24:27,891 --> 07:24:29,934
to survive the next 48 hours.

5092
07:24:30,060 --> 07:24:33,688
- This took place inside the block?
- Inside the block, in my room.

5093
07:24:35,566 --> 07:24:39,193
And I told him also
the need for a personality,

5094
07:24:39,319 --> 07:24:42,113
and that he has been selected for that.

5095
07:24:42,239 --> 07:24:46,367
And, of course, he explained to me
that he understands the situation,

5096
07:24:46,493 --> 07:24:48,995
that it is extremely difficult for him
to make any decisions

5097
07:24:49,121 --> 07:24:51,247
because of the children,

5098
07:24:51,373 --> 07:24:57,670
and that he cannot see how he can
leave those children just to their fate.

5099
07:24:58,839 --> 07:25:00,715
He was sort of their father.

5100
07:25:00,841 --> 07:25:03,050
I mean, he was only 30 at that time,

5101
07:25:03,177 --> 07:25:06,679
but the relationship between him
and those children was very strong.

5102
07:25:06,805 --> 07:25:11,601
And he said to me that, of course, he can
see the logic behind my argumentation,

5103
07:25:11,727 --> 07:25:16,272
and that he would like
to think about it for an hour,

5104
07:25:16,398 --> 07:25:19,901
if I could leave him alone
to think for an hour.

5105
07:25:20,027 --> 07:25:23,571
And because I had, at that time,
a room of my own as a registrar,

5106
07:25:23,697 --> 07:25:26,115
I left him in my room,

5107
07:25:26,241 --> 07:25:28,910
which was equipped with a table,

5108
07:25:30,245 --> 07:25:32,330
a chair and a bed

5109
07:25:32,456 --> 07:25:34,874
and some writing instrumentation.

5110
07:25:35,334 --> 07:25:38,628
And I told him that I will come back
in an hour's time.

5111
07:25:38,754 --> 07:25:41,130
And I came back in an hour,

5112
07:25:41,256 --> 07:25:43,716
and I could see that
he is laying on my bed,

5113
07:25:43,842 --> 07:25:45,843
and that he's dying.

5114
07:25:45,969 --> 07:25:48,638
He was cyanotic in the face.

5115
07:25:48,764 --> 07:25:51,265
He had froth around the mouth,

5116
07:25:51,391 --> 07:25:54,435
and I could see that
he has poisoned himself.

5117
07:25:54,561 --> 07:25:56,520
He took poison,

5118
07:25:56,647 --> 07:25:58,481
but he was not dead.

5119
07:25:59,274 --> 07:26:02,526
And, because of him
being so important, I...

5120
07:26:02,653 --> 07:26:05,154
I didn't know what sort of poison
he took,

5121
07:26:05,906 --> 07:26:10,576
but I had, again, a connection
to a man called Dr. Kleinman.

5122
07:26:11,078 --> 07:26:16,207
This Dr. Kleinman was
of Polish origin and a French Jew

5123
07:26:16,333 --> 07:26:18,334
and medically qualified.

5124
07:26:18,835 --> 07:26:22,088
And I called Dr. Kleinman
immediately to Hirsch

5125
07:26:22,839 --> 07:26:26,384
and asked Kleinman
to do what he can

5126
07:26:26,510 --> 07:26:28,719
because this is an important man.

5127
07:26:29,721 --> 07:26:32,348
And Kleinman inspected
Freddy Hirsch,

5128
07:26:32,474 --> 07:26:37,436
and he said that he thinks he poisoned
himselfwith a big dose of barbiturates,

5129
07:26:37,562 --> 07:26:41,857
that it might be perhaps possible
to save his life,

5130
07:26:43,902 --> 07:26:47,405
but he won't be on his feet
for a long time to come,

5131
07:26:47,531 --> 07:26:52,451
and he is going to be gassed within
the next 48 hours, and he thinks...

5132
07:26:52,577 --> 07:26:55,705
Kleinman said it would be better
to leave things as they are

5133
07:26:55,831 --> 07:26:57,915
and to do nothing.

5134
07:27:02,462 --> 07:27:06,924
Well, the story after the suicide
of Freddy Hirsch developed very fast.

5135
07:27:07,050 --> 07:27:11,429
The first thing,
I informed the rest of... of them,

5136
07:27:11,555 --> 07:27:13,306
what I told to Hirsch.

5137
07:27:13,432 --> 07:27:16,809
Secondly, I moved to the Camp ll D

5138
07:27:16,935 --> 07:27:20,146
to establish a contact
with the Resistance there,

5139
07:27:20,272 --> 07:27:22,523
with the Resistance movement.

5140
07:27:22,649 --> 07:27:26,027
They gave me bread for the people...

5141
07:27:26,153 --> 07:27:27,862
bread, yes, bread and onions...

5142
07:27:27,988 --> 07:27:30,364
and said that I will get...
they don't know any...

5143
07:27:30,490 --> 07:27:35,077
no decision has been made, and I should
come later for... for instructions.

5144
07:27:35,829 --> 07:27:38,873
The moment I distributed the bread,
something happened,

5145
07:27:38,999 --> 07:27:42,585
namely, a special curfew
was made within the camp.

5146
07:27:42,711 --> 07:27:45,379
All administrative activities
were stopped.

5147
07:27:46,006 --> 07:27:47,882
All guards were doubled.

5148
07:27:48,008 --> 07:27:51,719
Machine guns, et cetera, were spread
around the quarantine camps,

5149
07:27:51,845 --> 07:27:53,554
and I was out of contact.

5150
07:27:53,680 --> 07:27:56,974
The Czech family transport
was then gassed in the evening.

5151
07:27:57,100 --> 07:27:59,143
They were put on trucks.

5152
07:28:00,354 --> 07:28:02,313
All of them knew.

5153
07:28:02,439 --> 07:28:04,774
They were put on trucks.
They behaved very well.

5154
07:28:04,900 --> 07:28:07,777
We didn't know, of course,
where the trucks are going.

5155
07:28:07,903 --> 07:28:09,820
They were being assured
once more

5156
07:28:09,946 --> 07:28:12,281
that they are going to Heydebreck
and not to be gassed.

5157
07:28:12,407 --> 07:28:14,867
And we knew that,
if they are going out from the camp,

5158
07:28:14,993 --> 07:28:18,287
the trucks will turn right
when they leave the camp.

5159
07:28:18,413 --> 07:28:21,123
And we knew that, if they turn left,
there is only one way.

5160
07:28:21,249 --> 07:28:23,501
500 yards, and that's
where the crematorium was.

5161
07:28:56,535 --> 07:29:00,621
(Muller) That night,
I was at Crematorium II.

5162
07:29:06,420 --> 07:29:11,966
As soon as the people
got out of the vans,

5163
07:29:12,092 --> 07:29:15,511
they were blinded by floodlights

5164
07:29:15,637 --> 07:29:18,097
and forced through a corridor

5165
07:29:18,223 --> 07:29:26,147
to the stairs leading
to the "undressing room."

5166
07:29:26,273 --> 07:29:30,401
They were blinded, made to run.

5167
07:29:30,527 --> 07:29:33,154
Blows were rained on them.

5168
07:29:34,156 --> 07:29:38,742
Those who didn't run fast enough
were beaten to death

5169
07:29:38,869 --> 07:29:41,078
by the SS.

5170
07:29:41,204 --> 07:29:46,542
The violence used against them
was extraordinary.

5171
07:29:47,252 --> 07:29:48,752
And suddenly...

5172
07:29:48,879 --> 07:29:52,465
- (Lanzmann) Without explanation?
- Not a word.

5173
07:29:52,591 --> 07:29:56,302
As soon as they left the vans,

5174
07:29:56,428 --> 07:29:59,722
the beatings began.

5175
07:30:00,891 --> 07:30:04,727
When they entered
the "undressing room,"

5176
07:30:04,853 --> 07:30:11,734
I was standing near the rear door,

5177
07:30:12,777 --> 07:30:16,989
and from there I witnessed
the frightful scene.

5178
07:30:17,115 --> 07:30:20,618
The people were bloodied.

5179
07:30:21,495 --> 07:30:23,746
They knew then where they were.

5180
07:30:23,872 --> 07:30:26,999
They stared at the pillars

5181
07:30:27,125 --> 07:30:34,340
of the so-called "International
Information Centre" I mentioned,

5182
07:30:34,799 --> 07:30:37,092
and that terrified them.

5183
07:30:37,219 --> 07:30:39,136
What they read didn't reassure them.

5184
07:30:39,262 --> 07:30:44,475
On the contrary, it panicked them.

5185
07:30:44,601 --> 07:30:46,977
They knew the score.

5186
07:30:47,103 --> 07:30:51,774
They'd learned at Camp B ll B
what went on there.

5187
07:30:51,900 --> 07:30:53,734
They were in despair.

5188
07:30:53,860 --> 07:30:56,362
Children clung to each other.

5189
07:30:56,863 --> 07:30:59,198
Their mothers,

5190
07:31:00,617 --> 07:31:04,453
their parents, the old people all cried,

5191
07:31:04,579 --> 07:31:06,121
overcome with misery.

5192
07:31:06,248 --> 07:31:08,165
Suddenly,

5193
07:31:08,291 --> 07:31:13,546
some SS officers
appeared on the steps,

5194
07:31:13,672 --> 07:31:19,969
including the camp commandant,
Schwarzhuber.

5195
07:31:20,095 --> 07:31:26,892
He'd given them his word
as an SS officer

5196
07:31:27,018 --> 07:31:32,815
that they'd be transferred
to Heydebreck.

5197
07:31:32,941 --> 07:31:39,071
So they all began to cry out, to beg,

5198
07:31:39,948 --> 07:31:44,535
shouting, "Heydebreck was a trick!

5199
07:31:44,661 --> 07:31:49,498
"We were lied to!
We want to live! We want to work!"

5200
07:31:49,624 --> 07:31:54,753
They looked their SS executioners
in the eye,

5201
07:31:54,879 --> 07:31:57,339
but the SS men...

5202
07:32:00,427 --> 07:32:04,638
...remained impassive,
just staring at them.

5203
07:32:04,764 --> 07:32:07,600
There was a movement in the crowd.

5204
07:32:07,726 --> 07:32:13,063
They probably wanted
to rush to the SS men

5205
07:32:13,189 --> 07:32:15,816
and tell them
how they'd been lied to.

5206
07:32:15,942 --> 07:32:21,196
Then some guards surged forward,

5207
07:32:21,323 --> 07:32:24,617
wielding clubs,

5208
07:32:24,743 --> 07:32:27,286
and more people were injured.

5209
07:32:27,746 --> 07:32:30,039
In the "undressing room."

5210
07:32:30,165 --> 07:32:33,375
The violence climaxed

5211
07:32:33,501 --> 07:32:41,342
when they tried to force
the people to undress.

5212
07:32:41,468 --> 07:32:43,552
A few obeyed,

5213
07:32:43,678 --> 07:32:46,972
only a handful.

5214
07:32:47,098 --> 07:32:53,771
Most of them refused to follow the order.

5215
07:32:53,897 --> 07:32:57,858
Suddenly, as though in chorus,

5216
07:32:59,319 --> 07:33:02,488
like a chorus...

5217
07:33:02,614 --> 07:33:06,283
they all began to sing.

5218
07:33:08,244 --> 07:33:12,831
The whole "undressing room" rang

5219
07:33:12,957 --> 07:33:17,503
with the Czech national anthem,

5220
07:33:17,629 --> 07:33:20,255
and the "Hatikva."

5221
07:33:20,799 --> 07:33:25,219
That moved me terribly, that...

5222
07:33:43,947 --> 07:33:45,781
Please stop.

5223
07:33:47,826 --> 07:33:52,538
That was happening to my countrymen,

5224
07:33:52,664 --> 07:33:54,873
and I realised

5225
07:33:55,667 --> 07:33:59,420
that my life had become meaningless.

5226
07:34:00,255 --> 07:34:03,382
Why go on living? For what?

5227
07:34:05,719 --> 07:34:10,723
So I went into the gas chamber
with them...

5228
07:34:13,560 --> 07:34:16,228
...resolved to die.

5229
07:34:18,356 --> 07:34:20,065
With them.

5230
07:34:21,025 --> 07:34:25,988
Suddenly, some who recognised me
came up to me.

5231
07:34:26,489 --> 07:34:29,867
For my locksmith friends and I

5232
07:34:29,993 --> 07:34:33,120
had sometimes gone
into the family camp.

5233
07:34:34,748 --> 07:34:42,588
A small group of women approached.

5234
07:34:42,714 --> 07:34:47,342
They looked at me and said
right there in the gas chamber...

5235
07:34:47,469 --> 07:34:49,636
- You were inside the gas chamber?
- Inside.

5236
07:34:49,763 --> 07:34:52,139
One of them said,

5237
07:34:56,227 --> 07:34:59,605
"So you want to die.

5238
07:34:59,731 --> 07:35:01,565
"But that's senseless.

5239
07:35:01,691 --> 07:35:06,111
"Your death won't give us
back our lives.

5240
07:35:07,030 --> 07:35:09,448
"That's no way.

5241
07:35:11,034 --> 07:35:15,454
"You must get out of here alive,

5242
07:35:16,623 --> 07:35:20,542
"you must bear witness
to our suffering,

5243
07:35:20,668 --> 07:35:24,296
"and to the injustice done to us."

5244
07:36:19,894 --> 07:36:23,397
(Vrba) That's how it ended
with the first Czech family transport.

5245
07:36:26,276 --> 07:36:28,318
And it was quite clear to me then

5246
07:36:28,444 --> 07:36:31,613
that the resistance in the camp

5247
07:36:33,783 --> 07:36:36,869
is not geared for an uprising,
but for survival,

5248
07:36:37,954 --> 07:36:40,914
for the survival of the members
of the Resistance.

5249
07:36:52,594 --> 07:36:55,512
I then decided to act,

5250
07:36:55,638 --> 07:36:57,806
what was called
by the members of Resistance

5251
07:36:57,932 --> 07:37:01,184
as anarchic and individualistic activity,

5252
07:37:01,311 --> 07:37:04,980
like an escape
and leaving the community

5253
07:37:05,106 --> 07:37:08,025
for which I am co-responsible
by that time.

5254
07:37:10,695 --> 07:37:13,906
RUDOLF VRBA
AND HIS FRIEND WETZLER

5255
07:37:14,032 --> 07:37:17,784
ESCAPED ON APRIL 7, 1944.

5256
07:37:17,911 --> 07:37:21,246
SEVERAL PRISONERS HAD
PREVIOUSLY TRIED TO FLEE,

5257
07:37:21,372 --> 07:37:24,374
BUT ALL WERE CAUGHT.

5258
07:37:26,628 --> 07:37:29,212
The decision to escape,

5259
07:37:29,339 --> 07:37:33,884
in spite of the policy
of the Resistance movement at that time,

5260
07:37:34,510 --> 07:37:36,261
uh, was formed immediately,

5261
07:37:36,387 --> 07:37:39,473
and I started to press on
with the preparations for the escape

5262
07:37:39,599 --> 07:37:44,019
together with my friend Wetzler who
was extremely important in this matter.

5263
07:37:44,145 --> 07:37:49,524
And before I left,
I spoke with, uh, Hugo Lenek.

5264
07:37:49,651 --> 07:37:52,486
And Hugo Lenek was
in command of the second...

5265
07:37:52,612 --> 07:37:55,948
of the Resistance group
in the second family transport.

5266
07:37:57,075 --> 07:37:58,825
Yes, and I explained to him that,

5267
07:37:58,952 --> 07:38:03,372
from the Resistance movement,
they can "explain" nothing now...

5268
07:38:03,498 --> 07:38:05,749
expect nothing but bread.

5269
07:38:05,875 --> 07:38:09,920
But when it comes to the dying,
they should act on their own.

5270
07:38:10,046 --> 07:38:11,964
As for myself is concerned,

5271
07:38:12,090 --> 07:38:18,345
I think that if I successfully managed
to break out from the camp

5272
07:38:18,471 --> 07:38:24,101
and bring the information
to the right place, in the right time,

5273
07:38:24,227 --> 07:38:25,978
that this might be a help,

5274
07:38:26,104 --> 07:38:32,067
that I might manage, if I succeed,
to bring help from outside.

5275
07:38:32,694 --> 07:38:37,364
And also it was a firm belief in me
that all this was possible

5276
07:38:37,490 --> 07:38:40,701
because either the victims
who came to Auschwitz

5277
07:38:40,827 --> 07:38:43,412
didn't know what is happening there,

5278
07:38:44,872 --> 07:38:47,708
or, if somebody had
the knowledge outside,

5279
07:38:48,543 --> 07:38:50,585
that the knowledge was with...

5280
07:38:52,296 --> 07:38:54,464
I would say that they didn't know.
That's it.

5281
07:38:54,590 --> 07:39:00,137
I thought that, if this will be
made known, by any means,

5282
07:39:00,263 --> 07:39:03,515
within Europe
and especially within Hungary,

5283
07:39:04,892 --> 07:39:07,352
from where a million Jews
were supposed to be

5284
07:39:07,478 --> 07:39:10,397
transported to Auschwitz
immediately in May,

5285
07:39:10,523 --> 07:39:12,941
and I knew about that,

5286
07:39:13,067 --> 07:39:15,193
that this might stir up
the Resistance outside

5287
07:39:15,319 --> 07:39:18,655
and bring help from outside
directly to Auschwitz.

5288
07:39:18,781 --> 07:39:22,284
And, thus, the escape plans
were finally formulated,

5289
07:39:22,410 --> 07:39:24,953
and the escape took place
on April 7th.

5290
07:39:25,079 --> 07:39:28,874
(Lanzmann) This is the main reason
why you decided to escape?

5291
07:39:29,000 --> 07:39:31,960
Suddenly, at that moment,
to press on with it.

5292
07:39:32,086 --> 07:39:34,588
In other words, not to delay anything,

5293
07:39:34,714 --> 07:39:37,382
but to escape as soon as possible.

5294
07:39:39,260 --> 07:39:40,761
To inform the world.

5295
07:39:40,887 --> 07:39:43,013
- About what was going on?
- Right.

5296
07:39:43,139 --> 07:39:45,098
- In Auschwitz?
- Right. Right.

5297
07:39:59,697 --> 07:40:01,323
(Exhales)

5298
07:40:02,992 --> 07:40:05,494
Now... now I go back

5299
07:40:08,039 --> 07:40:10,290
35 years.

5300
07:40:14,629 --> 07:40:15,879
No.

5301
07:40:16,589 --> 07:40:21,468
I don't go back, you know,
as a matter off act.

5302
07:40:22,053 --> 07:40:23,470
(Sobbing)

5303
07:40:27,350 --> 07:40:29,851
I come back.

5304
07:40:44,742 --> 07:40:48,620
JAN KARSKI,
University Professor, USA

5305
07:40:49,247 --> 07:40:53,375
FORMER COURIER OF
THE POLISH GOVERNMENT IN EXILE

5306
07:40:56,462 --> 07:40:59,798
(Karski) I am ready.
(Lanzmann) All right.

5307
07:41:03,344 --> 07:41:06,763
(Karski) In the middle of 1942,

5308
07:41:07,807 --> 07:41:11,726
I was thinking to continue
my service as a courier

5309
07:41:11,853 --> 07:41:15,230
between the Polish underground

5310
07:41:15,356 --> 07:41:20,318
and the Polish government
in exile, in London.

5311
07:41:22,488 --> 07:41:28,743
The Jewish leaders in Warsaw
learned about it.

5312
07:41:28,870 --> 07:41:32,372
A meeting was arranged
outside of the ghetto.

5313
07:41:32,999 --> 07:41:35,500
There were two gentlemen.

5314
07:41:35,626 --> 07:41:38,336
They did not live in the ghetto.

5315
07:41:39,255 --> 07:41:41,423
They introduced themselves:

5316
07:41:43,009 --> 07:41:45,260
leader of Bund,

5317
07:41:46,387 --> 07:41:48,513
Zionist leader.

5318
07:41:54,937 --> 07:42:01,985
Now, what "transcribed,"
what happened in our conversation,

5319
07:42:02,653 --> 07:42:06,406
first, I was not prepared for it.

5320
07:42:07,116 --> 07:42:12,329
I was relatively isolated
in my work in Poland.

5321
07:42:12,455 --> 07:42:15,749
I did not see many things.

5322
07:42:18,461 --> 07:42:22,339
In 35 years after the war,

5323
07:42:25,051 --> 07:42:27,093
I don't go back.

5324
07:42:28,387 --> 07:42:31,139
I have been a teacher for 26 years.

5325
07:42:31,265 --> 07:42:36,895
I never mention
the Jewish problem to my students.

5326
07:42:37,396 --> 07:42:42,567
I understand this film
is for historical record,

5327
07:42:42,693 --> 07:42:45,946
so I will try to do it.

5328
07:42:49,575 --> 07:42:53,662
They described to me
what is happening to the Jews.

5329
07:42:54,622 --> 07:42:56,790
Did I know about it?

5330
07:42:56,916 --> 07:42:58,792
No, I didn't.

5331
07:42:59,794 --> 07:43:03,171
They described to me first

5332
07:43:03,631 --> 07:43:08,009
that the Jews...
Jewish problem is unprecedented,

5333
07:43:08,135 --> 07:43:12,180
cannot be compared
with the Polish problem,

5334
07:43:12,306 --> 07:43:15,892
or the Russian,
or any other problem.

5335
07:43:16,519 --> 07:43:19,562
Hitler will lose this war,

5336
07:43:21,816 --> 07:43:26,236
but he will exterminate
all the Jewish population.

5337
07:43:26,362 --> 07:43:28,446
Do I understand it?

5338
07:43:29,532 --> 07:43:32,742
The Allies fight for their people.

5339
07:43:32,868 --> 07:43:35,287
They fight for humanity.

5340
07:43:35,746 --> 07:43:39,040
The Allies cannot forget

5341
07:43:40,501 --> 07:43:45,588
that the Jews will be exterminated
totally in Poland,

5342
07:43:45,715 --> 07:43:48,383
Polish and European Jews.

5343
07:43:55,016 --> 07:43:57,475
They were breaking down.

5344
07:43:57,601 --> 07:44:01,354
They paced the room.
They were whispering.

5345
07:44:01,480 --> 07:44:03,273
They were hissing.

5346
07:44:05,568 --> 07:44:07,777
It was a nightmare

5347
07:44:08,946 --> 07:44:11,156
for me.

5348
07:44:11,282 --> 07:44:14,617
(Lanzmann) Did they look
in complete desperation?

5349
07:44:15,619 --> 07:44:17,329
Yes.

5350
07:44:17,455 --> 07:44:21,374
Yes, at various stages
of the conversation,

5351
07:44:22,126 --> 07:44:24,669
they lost control of themselves.

5352
07:44:24,795 --> 07:44:27,297
I just sat in my chair.

5353
07:44:27,798 --> 07:44:29,632
I just listened.

5354
07:44:31,052 --> 07:44:34,137
I did not even react.
I didn't ask them questions.

5355
07:44:34,263 --> 07:44:36,639
I was just listening.

5356
07:44:38,142 --> 07:44:39,559
Well, and then they...

5357
07:44:39,685 --> 07:44:44,647
(Lanzmann) They wanted
to convince you to convey...?

5358
07:44:44,774 --> 07:44:48,568
They realised, I think...

5359
07:44:48,694 --> 07:44:52,530
They realised from the beginning
that I don't know,

5360
07:44:52,656 --> 07:44:55,283
that I don't understand
this problem.

5361
07:44:56,035 --> 07:44:59,871
Once I said
I will take messages from them,

5362
07:45:00,623 --> 07:45:04,918
they wanted to inform me
what is happening to the Jews.

5363
07:45:05,044 --> 07:45:08,922
And I didn't know this.
I was never in a ghetto.

5364
07:45:09,048 --> 07:45:12,175
I never dealt with the Jewish matters.

5365
07:45:14,303 --> 07:45:15,929
Did you know yourself at the time

5366
07:45:16,055 --> 07:45:19,974
that most of the Jews of Warsaw
had already been killed?

5367
07:45:20,101 --> 07:45:23,645
I did know,
but I didn't see anything.

5368
07:45:23,771 --> 07:45:27,649
I had never heard any description
what is happening over there.

5369
07:45:27,775 --> 07:45:29,818
I was never there.

5370
07:45:29,944 --> 07:45:33,488
It is one thing to know statistics.

5371
07:45:33,614 --> 07:45:37,492
There were hundreds of thousands
of Poles also killed,

5372
07:45:37,618 --> 07:45:39,828
Russians, Serbs, Greeks.

5373
07:45:39,954 --> 07:45:42,664
We knew about it,

5374
07:45:42,790 --> 07:45:45,458
but it was a question of statistics.

5375
07:45:52,758 --> 07:45:56,678
But did they insist about
the complete uniqueness

5376
07:45:56,804 --> 07:45:59,431
of the situation of the Jews?

5377
07:45:59,557 --> 07:46:03,810
Yes, this was their problem:
to impress upon me,

5378
07:46:03,936 --> 07:46:05,353
and then it was my mission

5379
07:46:05,479 --> 07:46:11,526
to impress upon all people
whom I am going to see,

5380
07:46:11,652 --> 07:46:17,532
that the Jewish situation
is unprecedented in history.

5381
07:46:17,658 --> 07:46:22,454
Egyptians...
Egyptian pharaohs did not do it.

5382
07:46:22,580 --> 07:46:25,457
Babylonians did not do it.

5383
07:46:25,583 --> 07:46:28,877
Now, for the first time in history,

5384
07:46:29,003 --> 07:46:32,881
actually,
they came to the conclusion.

5385
07:46:33,007 --> 07:46:39,053
Unless the Allies take
some unprecedented steps,

5386
07:46:39,180 --> 07:46:43,433
regardless of the outcome of the war,

5387
07:46:44,059 --> 07:46:48,396
the Jews will be totally exterminated.

5388
07:46:48,856 --> 07:46:51,107
And they cannot accept it.

5389
07:46:53,152 --> 07:46:55,987
This means that they asked
for very specific measures...?

5390
07:46:56,113 --> 07:46:57,780
Yes.

5391
07:46:58,282 --> 07:47:02,160
So then, interchangeably,

5392
07:47:02,703 --> 07:47:05,038
at a certain point,
the Bund leader,

5393
07:47:05,164 --> 07:47:07,916
at a certain point,
the Zionist leader...

5394
07:47:08,959 --> 07:47:11,336
Then what do they want?

5395
07:47:11,795 --> 07:47:15,215
What message am I supposed to take?

5396
07:47:15,341 --> 07:47:18,968
Then they gave me messages,

5397
07:47:19,762 --> 07:47:24,849
various messages
to the Allied governments, as such.

5398
07:47:24,975 --> 07:47:31,856
I was to see as many
government officials as I could.

5399
07:47:33,067 --> 07:47:35,109
As I could, of course.

5400
07:47:35,236 --> 07:47:38,530
Then, to the Polish government.

5401
07:47:38,656 --> 07:47:42,075
Then to the president
of the Polish Republic.

5402
07:47:42,201 --> 07:47:46,037
Then to the international Jewish leaders,

5403
07:47:48,082 --> 07:47:54,587
and to individual political leaders,
leading intellectuals.

5404
07:47:54,713 --> 07:47:58,633
Approach as many people as possible.

5405
07:47:58,759 --> 07:48:05,473
And then they gave me segments:
to whom do I report what.

5406
07:48:06,058 --> 07:48:09,352
So now, in this nightmarish...

5407
07:48:10,729 --> 07:48:13,022
Two meetings, I had with them,

5408
07:48:13,148 --> 07:48:15,775
nightmarish meetings.

5409
07:48:15,901 --> 07:48:20,947
Well, then,
they presented their demands,

5410
07:48:21,073 --> 07:48:23,116
separate demands.

5411
07:48:30,874 --> 07:48:32,584
The message was:

5412
07:48:34,587 --> 07:48:40,800
"Hitler cannot be allowed
to continue extermination.

5413
07:48:43,637 --> 07:48:45,722
"Every day counts."

5414
07:48:50,227 --> 07:48:53,146
NEW YORK

5415
07:48:58,485 --> 07:49:03,323
(Karski)
The Allies cannot treat this war

5416
07:49:03,449 --> 07:49:08,870
only from a purely military,
strategic standpoint.

5417
07:49:15,127 --> 07:49:17,211
They will win the war

5418
07:49:19,214 --> 07:49:21,841
if they take such an attitude,

5419
07:49:23,427 --> 07:49:26,012
but what good will it do to us?

5420
07:49:28,349 --> 07:49:31,726
We will not survive this war.

5421
07:49:39,902 --> 07:49:45,198
The Allied governments
cannot take such a stand.

5422
07:49:50,120 --> 07:49:53,081
We contributed to humanity.

5423
07:49:53,582 --> 07:49:59,295
We gave scientists
for thousands of years...

5424
07:50:01,006 --> 07:50:04,008
We originated great religions.

5425
07:50:06,428 --> 07:50:08,471
We are humans.

5426
07:50:09,306 --> 07:50:12,600
Do you understand it?
Do you understand it?

5427
07:50:14,645 --> 07:50:20,525
It never happened before in history
what is happening to our people now.

5428
07:50:20,651 --> 07:50:24,696
Perhaps it will shake
the conscience of the world.

5429
07:50:33,372 --> 07:50:36,874
We understand
we have no country of our own.

5430
07:50:38,293 --> 07:50:40,378
We have no government.

5431
07:50:41,880 --> 07:50:46,050
We have no voice
in the Allied councils,

5432
07:50:47,928 --> 07:50:52,557
so we have to use services,
little people like you are.

5433
07:50:54,476 --> 07:50:57,228
Will you do it?
Will you approach them?

5434
07:50:58,564 --> 07:51:02,442
Will you fulfil your mission,

5435
07:51:06,780 --> 07:51:09,282
approach the Allied leaders?

5436
07:51:09,950 --> 07:51:11,951
WASHINGTON

5437
07:51:12,828 --> 07:51:18,791
We want an official declaration...

5438
07:51:29,136 --> 07:51:32,013
...of the Allied nations

5439
07:51:34,308 --> 07:51:36,768
...that, in addition...

5440
07:51:41,982 --> 07:51:44,484
...to the military strategy...

5441
07:51:46,862 --> 07:51:50,615
...which aims at securing victory,

5442
07:51:52,201 --> 07:51:55,119
military victory in this war,

5443
07:51:58,916 --> 07:52:03,085
extermination of the Jews...

5444
07:52:04,254 --> 07:52:07,215
...forms a separate chapter,

5445
07:52:10,093 --> 07:52:13,012
and the Allied nations

5446
07:52:14,389 --> 07:52:18,810
formally, publicly announce...

5447
07:52:23,732 --> 07:52:26,609
...that they will deal with this problem,

5448
07:52:27,486 --> 07:52:31,447
that it becomes a part

5449
07:52:32,950 --> 07:52:38,621
of their overall strategy in this war.

5450
07:52:42,668 --> 07:52:45,378
Not only defeat of Germany,

5451
07:52:46,880 --> 07:52:53,010
but also saving the remaining
Jewish population.

5452
07:53:01,645 --> 07:53:05,314
Once they make
such an official declaration...

5453
07:53:07,693 --> 07:53:09,861
They have an air force.

5454
07:53:12,197 --> 07:53:15,032
They drop bombs on Germany,

5455
07:53:16,201 --> 07:53:19,662
why cannot they drop
millions of leaflets...

5456
07:53:23,375 --> 07:53:26,711
...informing the German population

5457
07:53:26,837 --> 07:53:31,340
exactly what their government
is doing to the Jews?

5458
07:53:31,466 --> 07:53:33,801
Perhaps they don't know it!

5459
07:53:38,056 --> 07:53:42,852
Now, let them make
an official declaration,

5460
07:53:42,978 --> 07:53:46,188
again, official, public declaration,

5461
07:53:47,107 --> 07:53:52,486
that if the German nation
does not offer evidence

5462
07:53:53,989 --> 07:53:57,658
of trying to change the policy
of their government,

5463
07:53:57,784 --> 07:54:02,580
German nation will have
to be held responsible

5464
07:54:03,206 --> 07:54:06,083
for the crimes
their government is committing.

5465
07:54:06,209 --> 07:54:11,130
And now, if there is not
such evidence,

5466
07:54:13,216 --> 07:54:17,720
to announce publicly, officially,

5467
07:54:18,931 --> 07:54:22,725
certain objects in Germany

5468
07:54:23,310 --> 07:54:26,646
will be bombed, destroyed,

5469
07:54:29,024 --> 07:54:31,817
as retaliation

5470
07:54:31,944 --> 07:54:38,282
for what the German government
is doing against the Jews.

5471
07:54:38,951 --> 07:54:42,328
That bombing which will take place

5472
07:54:42,454 --> 07:54:45,873
is not a part of the military strategy.

5473
07:54:46,375 --> 07:54:49,543
It deals only with the Jewish problem.

5474
07:54:49,670 --> 07:54:55,091
Let the German people know
before bombing takes place

5475
07:54:55,217 --> 07:54:58,010
and after bombing takes place

5476
07:54:58,136 --> 07:55:02,348
that this was done
and will continue to be done

5477
07:55:02,933 --> 07:55:07,436
because Jews are being
exterminated in Poland.

5478
07:55:07,562 --> 07:55:09,563
Perhaps it will help.

5479
07:55:11,400 --> 07:55:15,111
They can do it.
This, they can do it.

5480
07:55:18,573 --> 07:55:21,534
THE RUHR

5481
07:55:34,715 --> 07:55:37,133
(Karski) This was one mission.

5482
07:55:38,093 --> 07:55:39,427
Next...

5483
07:55:42,973 --> 07:55:44,974
...both of them,

5484
07:55:48,770 --> 07:55:51,981
particularly the Zionist leader...

5485
07:55:54,651 --> 07:55:58,070
He was again, like,
whispering, hissing to me.

5486
07:56:04,703 --> 07:56:07,038
Something is going to happen.

5487
07:56:17,382 --> 07:56:23,387
The Jews in the Warsaw ghetto
are talking about it.

5488
07:56:26,224 --> 07:56:29,060
Particularly young elements,

5489
07:56:37,652 --> 07:56:39,570
they will fight.

5490
07:56:50,999 --> 07:56:57,880
They speak about declaration of war
against the Third Reich,

5491
07:57:02,010 --> 07:57:04,720
unique war in the world history.

5492
07:57:11,520 --> 07:57:14,063
Never such a war took place.

5493
07:57:19,194 --> 07:57:23,405
They want to die fighting.

5494
07:57:26,493 --> 07:57:31,413
We cannot deny them
this kind of death.

5495
07:57:41,675 --> 07:57:47,972
By the way, I didn't know at that time
Jewish military organisation emerged.

5496
07:57:49,266 --> 07:57:55,020
They didn't tell me about it,
only that something is going to happen.

5497
07:57:59,025 --> 07:58:02,027
The Jews will fight.

5498
07:58:04,281 --> 07:58:06,157
They need arms.

5499
07:58:08,910 --> 07:58:15,958
We approached the commander
of the Home Army,

5500
07:58:16,084 --> 07:58:19,712
the underground movement in Poland.

5501
07:58:21,882 --> 07:58:25,342
Those arms were denied, refused.

5502
07:58:26,887 --> 07:58:29,138
They cannot be denied arms

5503
07:58:29,890 --> 07:58:31,557
if such arms exist,

5504
07:58:31,683 --> 07:58:34,393
and we know you have arms.

5505
07:58:38,481 --> 07:58:44,695
This message to the commander
in chief, General Sikorski,

5506
07:58:45,405 --> 07:58:47,531
to issue orders

5507
07:58:48,491 --> 07:58:52,870
that those arms will be given
to the Jews.

5508
07:59:26,238 --> 07:59:29,323
AUSCHWITZ - BIRKENAU

5509
08:00:34,347 --> 08:00:37,349
(Karski) This was another part
of the mission.

5510
08:00:39,060 --> 08:00:42,313
There are international Jewish leaders.

5511
08:00:44,774 --> 08:00:46,567
Reach as many as possible.

5512
08:00:46,693 --> 08:00:48,569
Tell them this...

5513
08:00:51,114 --> 08:00:53,282
They are Jewish leaders.

5514
08:00:54,659 --> 08:00:57,036
Their people are dying.

5515
08:00:57,912 --> 08:00:59,955
There will be no Jews,

5516
08:01:02,167 --> 08:01:04,626
so what for do we need leaders?

5517
08:01:05,337 --> 08:01:07,671
We are going to die as well.

5518
08:01:08,381 --> 08:01:11,884
We don't try to escape.
We stay here.

5519
08:01:20,226 --> 08:01:22,186
Let them go

5520
08:01:24,522 --> 08:01:26,607
to important offices

5521
08:01:27,984 --> 08:01:30,652
in London, wherever they are.

5522
08:01:31,946 --> 08:01:34,907
Let them demand for action.

5523
08:01:36,951 --> 08:01:38,994
If it is refused,

5524
08:01:40,914 --> 08:01:43,374
let them walk out,

5525
08:01:43,958 --> 08:01:46,126
stay in the street,

5526
08:01:47,337 --> 08:01:48,962
refuse food,

5527
08:01:51,049 --> 08:01:52,841
refuse drink.

5528
08:01:54,803 --> 08:01:56,512
Let them die

5529
08:01:58,014 --> 08:02:00,724
in view of all humanity.

5530
08:02:02,477 --> 08:02:07,231
Who knows? Perhaps it will shake
the conscience of the world.

5531
08:02:56,906 --> 08:03:00,451
Between those two Jewish leaders,

5532
08:03:02,328 --> 08:03:06,748
somehow...
and this belongs to human relations...

5533
08:03:07,333 --> 08:03:11,962
I took, so to say, to the Bund leader,

5534
08:03:14,674 --> 08:03:17,050
probably because of his behaviour.

5535
08:03:17,177 --> 08:03:20,137
He looked like a Polish nobleman,

5536
08:03:20,263 --> 08:03:22,681
a gentleman, straight,

5537
08:03:22,807 --> 08:03:26,477
beautiful gestures, dignified.

5538
08:03:26,936 --> 08:03:31,190
I think that he liked me,
also personally.

5539
08:03:32,692 --> 08:03:37,946
Now, at a certain point,
he suggested it.

5540
08:03:38,615 --> 08:03:42,242
He says, "Mr. Witold,

5541
08:03:44,871 --> 08:03:47,998
"I know the Western world.

5542
08:03:49,501 --> 08:03:54,505
"You are going to deal
with the English.

5543
08:03:56,007 --> 08:04:01,553
"Now, you will give them
your oral reports.

5544
08:04:02,847 --> 08:04:07,935
"I am sure it will strengthen your report

5545
08:04:08,061 --> 08:04:13,774
"if you will be able to say,
'I saw it myself."'

5546
08:04:14,692 --> 08:04:18,403
WARSAW

5547
08:04:18,530 --> 08:04:24,451
"We can or ganise for you
to visit the Jewish ghetto.

5548
08:04:28,164 --> 08:04:30,666
"Would you do it?

5549
08:04:30,792 --> 08:04:32,543
"If you do,

5550
08:04:32,669 --> 08:04:37,089
"to the Jewish ghetto in Warsaw,
I will go with you,

5551
08:04:40,301 --> 08:04:42,469
"so I will be sure

5552
08:04:43,179 --> 08:04:45,973
"that you will be as safe as possible."

5553
08:04:49,477 --> 08:04:53,897
A few days later,
we established contact.

5554
08:04:57,026 --> 08:04:58,569
By that time,

5555
08:04:58,695 --> 08:05:06,243
the Jewish ghetto,
as it existed in 1942 until July,

5556
08:05:07,287 --> 08:05:09,663
did not exist anymore.

5557
08:05:11,040 --> 08:05:15,168
Out of approximately 400,000 Jews,

5558
08:05:16,170 --> 08:05:21,091
in the meantime, some 300,000
were already deported from the ghetto.

5559
08:05:29,434 --> 08:05:32,894
So within the outside walls,

5560
08:05:33,938 --> 08:05:37,357
practically there were some four units.

5561
08:05:38,901 --> 08:05:43,196
The most important was
the so-called "central ghetto."

5562
08:05:44,324 --> 08:05:48,577
They were separated by some areas
inhabited by the Aryans,

5563
08:05:48,703 --> 08:05:53,165
already some areas
not inhabited by anybody.

5564
08:05:54,834 --> 08:05:56,918
There was some building.

5565
08:06:00,465 --> 08:06:03,675
This building was constructed
in such a way

5566
08:06:03,801 --> 08:06:09,931
that the wall which separated
the ghetto from the outside world

5567
08:06:10,058 --> 08:06:13,602
was a part of the back of the building.

5568
08:06:15,521 --> 08:06:19,441
So the front was facing the Aryan area.

5569
08:06:25,281 --> 08:06:27,658
There was some tunnel.

5570
08:06:29,869 --> 08:06:35,082
We went through this tunnel
without any kind of difficulties.

5571
08:06:44,050 --> 08:06:47,969
What struck me:
completely different man,

5572
08:06:49,347 --> 08:06:50,889
the Bund leader,

5573
08:06:51,474 --> 08:06:53,600
the Polish nobleman.

5574
08:06:54,352 --> 08:06:56,895
I go with him.

5575
08:06:59,232 --> 08:07:03,360
He is broken down,

5576
08:07:04,320 --> 08:07:09,157
curving,
like a Jew from the ghetto,

5577
08:07:09,659 --> 08:07:12,661
as if he lived there all the time.

5578
08:07:13,496 --> 08:07:16,581
Apparently, this was his nature.

5579
08:07:18,167 --> 08:07:20,669
This was his world.

5580
08:07:29,262 --> 08:07:31,555
So we walked the streets.

5581
08:07:31,681 --> 08:07:33,724
He was on my left.

5582
08:07:35,560 --> 08:07:39,104
We didn't talk very much.
He led me.

5583
08:07:42,942 --> 08:07:46,570
Well, so what?
So now comes the description of it, yes?

5584
08:07:58,666 --> 08:08:00,167
Well...

5585
08:08:03,880 --> 08:08:06,715
Naked bodies on the street.

5586
08:08:10,803 --> 08:08:15,265
I ask him, "Why are they here?"

5587
08:08:15,391 --> 08:08:17,976
- (Lanzmann) Corpses, you mean?
- Corpses.

5588
08:08:18,895 --> 08:08:21,438
He says, "Well, they have a problem.

5589
08:08:22,607 --> 08:08:25,192
"If a Jew dies,

5590
08:08:25,693 --> 08:08:29,821
"and the family wants some burial,

5591
08:08:29,947 --> 08:08:32,657
"they have to pay tax on it,

5592
08:08:34,994 --> 08:08:37,954
"so they just throw them in the street."

5593
08:08:38,080 --> 08:08:40,999
- Because they cannot pay the tax?
- Yeah.

5594
08:08:41,876 --> 08:08:43,835
They cannot afford it.

5595
08:08:43,961 --> 08:08:48,423
So then they say, "Every rag counts,"

5596
08:08:48,883 --> 08:08:51,468
so they take their clothing.

5597
08:08:52,094 --> 08:08:56,973
And then, once the body,
the corpse, is on the street,

5598
08:08:57,099 --> 08:09:00,268
the Judenrat has to take care of it.

5599
08:09:02,855 --> 08:09:06,399
Women with their babies,

5600
08:09:06,859 --> 08:09:09,694
publicly feeding their babies,

5601
08:09:11,322 --> 08:09:15,784
but they have no... no breast,
it's just flat.

5602
08:09:15,910 --> 08:09:19,579
Babies with some crazy eyes, looking.

5603
08:09:24,460 --> 08:09:28,088
Did it look like
a complete strange world?

5604
08:09:28,214 --> 08:09:31,633
- What?
- It was a world, I mean.

5605
08:09:33,845 --> 08:09:37,806
No, it was not a world.
That was not humanity.

5606
08:09:38,599 --> 08:09:40,559
Streets full.

5607
08:09:41,143 --> 08:09:42,227
Full.

5608
08:09:42,895 --> 08:09:46,106
Apparently, all of them lived
in the street.

5609
08:09:47,191 --> 08:09:50,652
Exchange what...
what was the most important.

5610
08:09:50,778 --> 08:09:54,614
Everybody offering something to sell.

5611
08:09:56,742 --> 08:09:58,702
"Three onions."

5612
08:09:58,828 --> 08:10:01,663
"Buy onions."
"Some cookies?"

5613
08:10:02,623 --> 08:10:04,291
Selling.

5614
08:10:04,792 --> 08:10:07,377
Begging each other.

5615
08:10:09,380 --> 08:10:11,965
Crying, "I am hungry."

5616
08:10:14,927 --> 08:10:17,345
Those horrible children.

5617
08:10:19,015 --> 08:10:22,309
Some children running by themselves,

5618
08:10:23,978 --> 08:10:26,980
or with their mothers, sitting.

5619
08:10:36,032 --> 08:10:38,366
It wasn't humanity.

5620
08:10:39,076 --> 08:10:42,662
It was some... some... some hell.

5621
08:10:43,623 --> 08:10:44,831
Now...

5622
08:10:46,459 --> 08:10:48,668
...this part of the ghetto,

5623
08:10:50,338 --> 08:10:55,091
German officers were there,
in the central ghetto.

5624
08:10:56,260 --> 08:11:01,181
If Gestapo released somebody,
and the Gestapo officers,

5625
08:11:01,307 --> 08:11:05,477
they had to pass
through the ghetto to get out of it.

5626
08:11:05,978 --> 08:11:09,773
So there were also Germans,
German traffic.

5627
08:11:10,858 --> 08:11:14,361
Now, the Germans in uniform,

5628
08:11:15,780 --> 08:11:17,489
they were walking.

5629
08:11:17,615 --> 08:11:19,240
Silence.

5630
08:11:20,117 --> 08:11:23,828
Everybody frozen until he passed.

5631
08:11:24,747 --> 08:11:29,000
No movement, no begging, nothing.

5632
08:11:29,460 --> 08:11:31,336
Germans.

5633
08:11:32,922 --> 08:11:34,798
Contempt.

5634
08:11:36,217 --> 08:11:40,887
"This is those..." apparently...
"dirty subhuman."

5635
08:11:42,556 --> 08:11:45,141
"They are not human, this."

5636
08:11:47,019 --> 08:11:49,229
Now, at a certain point,

5637
08:11:51,816 --> 08:11:54,526
some movement starts.

5638
08:11:56,028 --> 08:11:59,948
Jews are running
from the street I was on.

5639
08:12:03,119 --> 08:12:05,954
We jumped into some house.

5640
08:12:07,540 --> 08:12:09,541
He just hits the door.

5641
08:12:09,667 --> 08:12:11,376
"Open the door! Open the door!"

5642
08:12:11,502 --> 08:12:14,462
They opened the door.
We moved in.

5643
08:12:14,588 --> 08:12:18,883
Windows go...
give to the back of the street.

5644
08:12:19,719 --> 08:12:21,428
We go to the opposite.

5645
08:12:21,554 --> 08:12:24,389
In the door.
Some woman opened the door.

5646
08:12:24,515 --> 08:12:26,933
He says, "All right, all right.
Don't be afraid.

5647
08:12:27,059 --> 08:12:28,601
"We are Jews."

5648
08:12:29,353 --> 08:12:31,438
He pushes me to the window.

5649
08:12:31,564 --> 08:12:34,107
"Now look at it. Look at it."

5650
08:12:37,945 --> 08:12:39,654
(Sighs heavily)

5651
08:12:40,948 --> 08:12:42,991
There were two boys,

5652
08:12:45,536 --> 08:12:47,704
nice-looking boys,

5653
08:12:48,581 --> 08:12:52,083
Hitler-Jugend uniforms.

5654
08:12:54,211 --> 08:12:55,920
They walked.

5655
08:12:57,923 --> 08:13:01,259
Every step they made,
Jews disappearing,

5656
08:13:02,094 --> 08:13:03,845
running away.

5657
08:13:05,890 --> 08:13:08,141
They were talking to each other.

5658
08:13:09,310 --> 08:13:11,352
At a certain point,

5659
08:13:12,021 --> 08:13:15,565
a boy gets into his pocket,

5660
08:13:16,317 --> 08:13:18,359
without even thinking...

5661
08:13:20,696 --> 08:13:22,030
...shoots.

5662
08:13:22,615 --> 08:13:24,282
"Aaah!"

5663
08:13:24,408 --> 08:13:26,242
Some broken glass.

5664
08:13:26,368 --> 08:13:29,871
Some shouting, "Aaah!"

5665
08:13:32,083 --> 08:13:35,835
The other boy says something,
congratulating him.

5666
08:13:37,630 --> 08:13:39,464
They go back.

5667
08:13:41,383 --> 08:13:43,718
So I was paralysed.

5668
08:13:43,844 --> 08:13:45,261
(Gasps)

5669
08:13:49,850 --> 08:13:51,351
(Sobs)

5670
08:13:57,274 --> 08:13:59,943
So then the Jewish woman...

5671
08:14:00,903 --> 08:14:04,739
Probably she recognised me,
I don't know... that I am not a Jew.

5672
08:14:05,908 --> 08:14:09,619
She embraced me. "Go, go.
It doesn't do you any good.

5673
08:14:09,745 --> 08:14:11,621
"Go, go."

5674
08:14:12,456 --> 08:14:14,499
So we left the house.

5675
08:14:18,087 --> 08:14:20,088
Then we left the ghetto.

5676
08:14:24,135 --> 08:14:28,888
So then he said, "You didn't see
everything. You didn't see too much.

5677
08:14:29,014 --> 08:14:32,600
"Would you like to go again?
I will go with you.

5678
08:14:33,644 --> 08:14:35,854
"I want you to see everything."

5679
08:14:37,273 --> 08:14:38,815
"I will."

5680
08:14:40,568 --> 08:14:46,489
Next day, we went again.
The same house, the same way.

5681
08:14:48,784 --> 08:14:52,287
So then, again,
now I was more conditioned,

5682
08:14:53,956 --> 08:14:56,291
so I felt the other things.

5683
08:14:57,042 --> 08:15:00,170
Stench.

5684
08:15:00,629 --> 08:15:02,964
Dirt, stench.

5685
08:15:04,967 --> 08:15:07,343
Everywhere. Suffocating.

5686
08:15:10,014 --> 08:15:12,724
Dirty streets.

5687
08:15:14,351 --> 08:15:17,228
Nervousness. Tension.

5688
08:15:19,315 --> 08:15:21,316
Some bedlam.

5689
08:15:23,360 --> 08:15:26,112
This was Platz Muranowski.

5690
08:15:26,864 --> 08:15:28,740
In a corner of it,

5691
08:15:30,034 --> 08:15:36,414
some children playing
something with some rags.

5692
08:15:36,540 --> 08:15:39,542
They're throwing the rags to another.

5693
08:15:40,085 --> 08:15:44,172
He says,
"They are playing, as you see.

5694
08:15:44,298 --> 08:15:47,258
"Life goes on. Life goes on."

5695
08:15:49,220 --> 08:15:51,221
So then I said,

5696
08:15:53,641 --> 08:15:57,769
"They are simulating playing.
They don't play."

5697
08:15:57,895 --> 08:16:02,899
- It was a special place for playing?
- In the corner of Platz Muranowski.

5698
08:16:03,025 --> 08:16:05,193
No, no, no. Open.

5699
08:16:05,319 --> 08:16:08,571
- As I say, they are...
- There were trees?

5700
08:16:08,697 --> 08:16:14,035
There were a few trees, rachitic trees.

5701
08:16:14,954 --> 08:16:17,163
So then we just walked the streets.

5702
08:16:17,289 --> 08:16:19,791
We didn't talk to anybody.

5703
08:16:21,710 --> 08:16:24,545
We walked probably one hour.

5704
08:16:25,923 --> 08:16:28,299
Sometimes, he would tell me,

5705
08:16:29,009 --> 08:16:32,387
"Look at this Jew,"

5706
08:16:32,513 --> 08:16:37,016
a Jew standing, without moving.

5707
08:16:43,607 --> 08:16:47,777
I said, "Is he dead?"
He says, "No, no, no. He's alive.

5708
08:16:50,239 --> 08:16:55,535
"Mr. Witold, remember, he's dying.

5709
08:16:56,036 --> 08:16:58,705
"He's dying. Look at him.

5710
08:16:59,290 --> 08:17:01,082
"Tell them over there.

5711
08:17:01,208 --> 08:17:03,209
"You saw it. Don't forget."

5712
08:17:03,335 --> 08:17:05,253
We walk again.

5713
08:17:07,214 --> 08:17:09,215
It's macabre.

5714
08:17:10,801 --> 08:17:14,929
Only from time to time,
he would whisper,

5715
08:17:15,055 --> 08:17:17,598
"Remember this. Remember this."

5716
08:17:19,059 --> 08:17:23,563
Or he would tell me,
"Look at her."

5717
08:17:26,525 --> 08:17:28,901
In very many cases,

5718
08:17:29,028 --> 08:17:31,988
I would say,
"What are they doing here?"

5719
08:17:32,114 --> 08:17:37,410
His answer: "They are dying.
That's all right. They are dying."

5720
08:17:39,121 --> 08:17:42,832
And always,
"But remember, remember."

5721
08:17:44,418 --> 08:17:47,712
We spent more...
perhaps one hour.

5722
08:17:47,838 --> 08:17:50,006
We left the ghetto.

5723
08:17:50,132 --> 08:17:52,592
Frankly, I couldn't take it anymore.

5724
08:17:53,093 --> 08:17:55,178
"Get me out of it."

5725
08:17:58,057 --> 08:18:00,975
And then I never saw him again.

5726
08:18:09,943 --> 08:18:11,819
I was sick.

5727
08:18:17,534 --> 08:18:20,953
I don't...
Even now, I don't want...

5728
08:18:21,080 --> 08:18:24,248
I understand your role.
I am here.

5729
08:18:24,375 --> 08:18:27,460
I don't go back in my memory.

5730
08:18:32,049 --> 08:18:34,384
I couldn't take any more.

5731
08:18:35,719 --> 08:18:40,473
But I reported... what I saw.

5732
08:18:45,771 --> 08:18:49,941
Yes, it was not a world,
it was not a part of humanity.

5733
08:18:50,067 --> 08:18:52,110
I was not part of it.

5734
08:18:53,237 --> 08:18:55,822
I did not belong there.

5735
08:18:58,242 --> 08:19:01,411
I never saw such things. I never...

5736
08:19:02,329 --> 08:19:07,458
Nobody wrote about this kind of reality.

5737
08:19:07,584 --> 08:19:11,295
I never saw any theatre,
I never saw any movie.

5738
08:19:14,049 --> 08:19:16,092
This was not the world.

5739
08:19:17,469 --> 08:19:21,264
I was told that
these are human beings.

5740
08:19:21,390 --> 08:19:25,351
They didn't look like human beings.

5741
08:19:29,606 --> 08:19:32,817
Then we left.
He embraced me then.

5742
08:19:33,652 --> 08:19:35,570
"Good luck. Good luck."

5743
08:19:35,696 --> 08:19:37,822
I never saw him again.

5744
08:20:00,137 --> 08:20:02,889
WARSAW

5745
08:20:08,270 --> 08:20:14,400
Next figure: Dr FRANZ GRASSLER,
DEPUTY TO AUERSWALD,

5746
08:20:15,903 --> 08:20:22,241
THE NAZI COMMISSIONER
OF THE WARSAW GHETTO

5747
08:20:51,104 --> 08:20:55,608
(Lanzmann, in German)
You don't remember those days?

5748
08:20:58,362 --> 08:21:00,279
(Grassler) Not much.

5749
08:21:01,865 --> 08:21:05,535
I recall more clearly my pre-war
mountaineering trips

5750
08:21:05,661 --> 08:21:07,745
than the entire war period

5751
08:21:07,871 --> 08:21:10,581
and those days in Warsaw.

5752
08:21:14,336 --> 08:21:18,756
All in all, those were bad times.

5753
08:21:21,969 --> 08:21:24,929
It's a fact, we tend to forget,

5754
08:21:25,597 --> 08:21:27,473
thank God,

5755
08:21:27,599 --> 08:21:30,393
the bad times
more easily than the good.

5756
08:21:35,691 --> 08:21:38,484
The bad times are repressed.

5757
08:21:44,575 --> 08:21:47,785
(Lanzmann)
I'll help you remember.

5758
08:21:52,833 --> 08:21:58,754
In Warsaw, you were
Dr. Auerswald's deputy.

5759
08:21:59,881 --> 08:22:01,215
(Grassler) Yes.

5760
08:22:03,927 --> 08:22:05,886
(Lanzmann)
Dr. Auerswald was...

5761
08:22:06,013 --> 08:22:09,557
(Grassler) Commissioner
of the "Jewish District" of Warsaw.

5762
08:22:12,603 --> 08:22:16,606
Dr. Grassler,
this is Czerniakow's diary.

5763
08:22:16,732 --> 08:22:18,524
You're mentioned in it.

5764
08:22:18,650 --> 08:22:21,235
- It's been printed, it exists?
- Yes, yes.

5765
08:22:21,361 --> 08:22:24,739
- He kept a diary...
- Mm-hmm.

5766
08:22:25,782 --> 08:22:30,745
That was recently published.

5767
08:22:34,166 --> 08:22:41,464
He wrote on July 7, 1941...

5768
08:22:41,590 --> 08:22:46,927
July 7, 1941? That's the first time
I've relearned a date.

5769
08:22:49,389 --> 08:22:51,599
May I take notes?

5770
08:22:51,725 --> 08:22:55,645
After all, it interests me too.

5771
08:22:56,563 --> 08:23:00,232
So in July I was already there.

5772
08:23:02,069 --> 08:23:06,030
He wrote on July 7, 1941,

5773
08:23:07,157 --> 08:23:13,371
"Morning in the Community",
the Jewish Council HQ,

5774
08:23:13,497 --> 08:23:17,541
"and later with Auerswald,
Schlosser..."

5775
08:23:18,543 --> 08:23:21,879
- Schlosser was...
- "...and Grassler."

5776
08:23:24,549 --> 08:23:27,551
"On routine matters."

5777
08:23:28,011 --> 08:23:30,179
That's the first time...

5778
08:23:30,305 --> 08:23:32,598
- That my name is mentioned?
- Yes.

5779
08:23:32,724 --> 08:23:35,017
Yes, but there were three of us.

5780
08:23:35,143 --> 08:23:38,854
Schlosser was in
the "economics department."

5781
08:23:38,980 --> 08:23:42,692
- I think he had to do with economics.
- Yes, yes.

5782
08:23:44,069 --> 08:23:48,155
And the second time...

5783
08:23:49,324 --> 08:23:52,993
...was on July 22.

5784
08:23:54,121 --> 08:24:00,084
CZERNIAKOW WAS PRESIDENT
OF THE WARSAW JEWISH COUNCIL

5785
08:24:00,210 --> 08:24:02,920
- He wrote every day?
- Yes.

5786
08:24:03,046 --> 08:24:04,964
Yes, every day.

5787
08:24:05,090 --> 08:24:09,343
- Every day?
- It's quite amazing...

5788
08:24:10,721 --> 08:24:16,642
That the diary was saved.
It's amazing that it was saved.

5789
08:24:22,065 --> 08:24:26,318
BURLINGTON - VERMONT, USA

5790
08:24:26,820 --> 08:24:32,783
(Hilberg, In English)
Adam Czerniakow began keeping a diary

5791
08:24:34,077 --> 08:24:36,704
the very first week of the war,

5792
08:24:38,498 --> 08:24:41,041
before the Germans entered Warsaw,

5793
08:24:41,835 --> 08:24:46,630
and before he took over the responsibility
of leading the Jewish community,

5794
08:24:49,259 --> 08:24:55,181
and kept his diary in daily entries

5795
08:24:56,183 --> 08:25:01,437
until the afternoon of the day
that he ended his life.

5796
08:25:07,027 --> 08:25:09,445
He left us a window

5797
08:25:11,031 --> 08:25:14,408
through which we can observe
a Jewish community

5798
08:25:14,534 --> 08:25:17,620
in the terminal hours of its life.

5799
08:25:18,497 --> 08:25:22,792
A dying community,
for it began dying from the beginning.

5800
08:25:24,294 --> 08:25:27,171
RAUL HILBERG

5801
08:25:27,297 --> 08:25:29,048
In that sense,

5802
08:25:30,008 --> 08:25:35,054
Adam Czerniakow did
something very important.

5803
08:25:35,514 --> 08:25:37,389
He didn't save the Jews.

5804
08:25:37,516 --> 08:25:40,476
In that respect,
he was like other Jewish leaders.

5805
08:25:42,437 --> 08:25:46,982
But he left a record
of what had happened to them

5806
08:25:47,943 --> 08:25:50,194
in a day-by-day fashion.

5807
08:25:52,030 --> 08:25:54,907
And you could see
that he did all this

5808
08:25:55,033 --> 08:25:57,743
on top of working
a seven-day week,

5809
08:25:58,537 --> 08:26:00,996
for he was a man without vacations,

5810
08:26:01,122 --> 08:26:03,165
without any day off.

5811
08:26:04,334 --> 08:26:08,045
And yet every day,
almost every day,

5812
08:26:08,171 --> 08:26:10,297
he had an entry.

5813
08:26:10,423 --> 08:26:12,758
He might record the weather,

5814
08:26:12,884 --> 08:26:15,469
where he went in the morning,

5815
08:26:15,595 --> 08:26:17,763
and then all the things that happened,

5816
08:26:17,889 --> 08:26:20,057
but he never failed to write.

5817
08:26:21,726 --> 08:26:27,231
That was something
that moved him, pushed him,

5818
08:26:27,357 --> 08:26:31,193
compelled him throughout the years,

5819
08:26:31,319 --> 08:26:36,574
almost three years of his life
under the Germans.

5820
08:26:39,119 --> 08:26:41,036
And, in that sense,

5821
08:26:41,162 --> 08:26:46,834
perhaps because he wrote
in such a prosaic style,

5822
08:26:48,670 --> 08:26:53,841
we now know
what went on in his mind,

5823
08:26:55,135 --> 08:26:57,553
how things were perceived,

5824
08:26:57,679 --> 08:27:00,806
recognised, reacted to.

5825
08:27:01,516 --> 08:27:03,893
We even know from what
he didn't say

5826
08:27:07,314 --> 08:27:11,400
just what it is that went
through this community.

5827
08:27:24,164 --> 08:27:29,376
There are constant references
in the diary

5828
08:27:30,420 --> 08:27:32,254
to the end.

5829
08:27:37,969 --> 08:27:41,972
He talks in terms of Greek mythology,

5830
08:27:42,098 --> 08:27:46,644
and he refers to himself
as wearing a poisoned cloak,

5831
08:27:47,979 --> 08:27:50,147
as Hercules once did.

5832
08:27:57,447 --> 08:28:02,201
He has a feeling of doom

5833
08:28:02,953 --> 08:28:05,204
for the Jews of Warsaw.

5834
08:28:09,960 --> 08:28:15,047
And there are remarkable passages
in the diary that illustrate what he meant.

5835
08:28:21,763 --> 08:28:24,515
He is sarcastic enough,
if that is the word,

5836
08:28:24,641 --> 08:28:29,353
in December 1941, to remark that
now the intelligentsia were dying also.

5837
08:28:29,479 --> 08:28:31,397
Up to this point,
poor people were dying,

5838
08:28:31,523 --> 08:28:37,861
but, by December 1941, members of
the intelligentsia were starving to death.

5839
08:28:37,988 --> 08:28:42,241
(Lanzmann) Why does he mention specifically
the intelligentsia at this time?

5840
08:28:42,367 --> 08:28:44,660
He mentions it
because there is a difference,

5841
08:28:44,786 --> 08:28:47,579
owing to the class structure
within the ghetto,

5842
08:28:47,706 --> 08:28:49,707
in vulnerability to starvation.

5843
08:28:49,833 --> 08:28:53,836
The lower classes died first.
The middle class died a little bit later.

5844
08:28:53,962 --> 08:28:56,880
Intelligentsia were, of course,
at the top of the middle class,

5845
08:28:57,007 --> 08:29:01,051
and once they started dying,
the situation was really very, very bad.

5846
08:29:02,345 --> 08:29:04,596
And that's the meaning of that.

5847
08:29:04,723 --> 08:29:07,182
We're dealing with a ghetto
where the average consumption

5848
08:29:07,308 --> 08:29:10,269
was about 1,200 calories.

5849
08:29:10,395 --> 08:29:15,065
He mentions with approval,
with approval,

5850
08:29:15,191 --> 08:29:18,027
that one petitioner came to him
for money

5851
08:29:18,945 --> 08:29:20,988
and said, "I want money,

5852
08:29:21,698 --> 08:29:23,741
"not in order to eat.

5853
08:29:23,867 --> 08:29:26,618
"I want money for the rent,

5854
08:29:27,287 --> 08:29:29,496
"to pay the rent for my apartment,

5855
08:29:29,622 --> 08:29:33,042
"because I don't want to die
in the street."

5856
08:29:34,002 --> 08:29:37,838
This is the kind of comment that
Czerniakow writes down in his diary.

5857
08:29:39,174 --> 08:29:42,760
This meaning of dignity,

5858
08:29:43,553 --> 08:29:45,304
the approval of the...

5859
08:29:45,430 --> 08:29:48,265
You mean he received
a petition from somebody

5860
08:29:48,892 --> 08:29:50,392
who said, "Give me money"?

5861
08:29:50,518 --> 08:29:52,686
Yes, but not for food.

5862
08:29:52,812 --> 08:29:55,981
"Give me money
so that I can pay the rent,

5863
08:29:56,107 --> 08:29:58,067
"because I don't want to die
in the street."

5864
08:29:58,193 --> 08:30:00,611
There were people
dropping dead in the street.

5865
08:30:01,488 --> 08:30:03,405
They were covered with newspaper.

5866
08:30:03,531 --> 08:30:06,825
Why was the housing
more important to him than the food?

5867
08:30:06,951 --> 08:30:09,161
To this particular individual,

5868
08:30:09,287 --> 08:30:11,622
who wasn't eating enough
to remain alive,

5869
08:30:11,748 --> 08:30:15,918
who didn't want to be dying of hunger
while collapsing in the street.

5870
08:30:16,044 --> 08:30:19,004
This means that
death was not avoidable,

5871
08:30:19,130 --> 08:30:23,509
but it was avoidable...
to die either inside or outside?

5872
08:30:23,635 --> 08:30:28,347
Of course.
It is one of these sardonicjokes,

5873
08:30:28,473 --> 08:30:30,641
of which he had quite a few.

5874
08:30:30,767 --> 08:30:32,476
He always had the...

5875
08:30:32,977 --> 08:30:35,938
strange, strange description

5876
08:30:36,064 --> 08:30:39,108
of a band playing
in front of a funeral parlour,

5877
08:30:39,234 --> 08:30:41,610
of a hearse with drunken drivers,

5878
08:30:41,736 --> 08:30:46,240
and a dead child
running around the grounds.

5879
08:30:46,366 --> 08:30:49,618
He had... He had rather
sardonic comments about death.

5880
08:30:49,744 --> 08:30:51,703
He lived with death.

5881
08:30:57,836 --> 08:30:59,837
(Pages turning)

5882
08:31:04,467 --> 08:31:07,010
(Lanzmann) Did you go into the ghetto?

5883
08:31:07,137 --> 08:31:12,057
Seldom.
When I had to visit Czerniakow.

5884
08:31:12,183 --> 08:31:15,435
What were the conditions like?

5885
08:31:15,562 --> 08:31:17,271
Awful.

5886
08:31:17,397 --> 08:31:20,232
- Yes, awful.
- Yes?

5887
08:31:20,358 --> 08:31:26,363
I never went back
when I saw what it was like.

5888
08:31:26,489 --> 08:31:28,532
Unless I had to.

5889
08:31:28,658 --> 08:31:35,122
In the whole period,
I think I only went once or twice.

5890
08:31:35,248 --> 08:31:39,751
At the Commission, we tried

5891
08:31:39,878 --> 08:31:43,839
to maintain the ghetto
for its labour force,

5892
08:31:43,965 --> 08:31:48,760
and especially
to prevent epidemics, like typhus.

5893
08:31:48,887 --> 08:31:50,929
That was the big danger.

5894
08:31:56,269 --> 08:31:58,187
- Yes.
- Yes?

5895
08:31:58,313 --> 08:32:01,940
Can you tell us about typhus?

5896
08:32:03,568 --> 08:32:05,402
I'm not a doctor.

5897
08:32:05,528 --> 08:32:10,699
I only know that typhus
is a very dangerous epidemic

5898
08:32:10,825 --> 08:32:15,621
that wipes people out like the plague,

5899
08:32:15,747 --> 08:32:18,707
and that it can't be confined
to a ghetto.

5900
08:32:18,833 --> 08:32:21,752
If typhus had broken out...

5901
08:32:21,878 --> 08:32:26,256
I don't think it did,
but there was fear that it might,

5902
08:32:26,382 --> 08:32:29,259
...it would have killed
the Poles and the Germans.

5903
08:32:29,385 --> 08:32:32,971
Why was there typhus in the ghetto?

5904
08:32:33,097 --> 08:32:34,932
I don't know if there was,

5905
08:32:35,058 --> 08:32:39,394
but there was a danger,
because of the famine.

5906
08:32:39,520 --> 08:32:42,689
People didn't get enough to eat.

5907
08:32:42,815 --> 08:32:47,569
That's what was so awful.

5908
08:32:47,695 --> 08:32:52,449
At the Commission,

5909
08:32:52,575 --> 08:32:56,411
we did our best to feed the ghetto,

5910
08:32:56,537 --> 08:33:03,627
so it wouldn't become
an incubator of epidemics.

5911
08:33:03,753 --> 08:33:09,049
Aside from humanitarian factors,
that's what mattered.

5912
08:33:09,509 --> 08:33:14,471
If typhus had broken out,
and it didn't,

5913
08:33:14,597 --> 08:33:18,225
it wouldn't have stopped
at the ghetto.

5914
08:33:18,768 --> 08:33:22,771
Czerniakow also wrote that

5915
08:33:22,897 --> 08:33:28,527
one of the reasons
the ghetto was walled in

5916
08:33:28,653 --> 08:33:31,822
was because of this German fear.

5917
08:33:31,948 --> 08:33:34,825
- Yes, absolutely!
- Fear of typhus.

5918
08:33:34,951 --> 08:33:41,957
He says Germans always
associated Jews with typhus.

5919
08:33:42,083 --> 08:33:43,542
Maybe.

5920
08:33:43,668 --> 08:33:47,546
I'm not sure
if there were grounds for it.

5921
08:33:47,672 --> 08:33:52,592
But imagine that mass of people
packed in the ghetto...

5922
08:33:52,719 --> 08:33:56,930
There weren't only the Warsaw Jews,

5923
08:33:57,056 --> 08:33:58,890
but others who came later.

5924
08:33:59,017 --> 08:34:01,435
The danger kept on growing.

5925
08:34:17,994 --> 08:34:21,621
(Hilberg) There was a lady
somewhere in Warsaw,

5926
08:34:22,415 --> 08:34:25,000
in love with a man.

5927
08:34:25,710 --> 08:34:29,379
And the man was hit,

5928
08:34:30,506 --> 08:34:32,507
grievously wounded,

5929
08:34:33,426 --> 08:34:36,011
with his insides coming out.

5930
08:34:40,183 --> 08:34:44,478
This woman stuffed the insides back
with her own hands.

5931
08:34:45,229 --> 08:34:48,857
She carried the man
to a first-aid station. He died.

5932
08:34:51,778 --> 08:34:57,240
He was buried in a mass grave.
She disinterred him and buried him.

5933
08:35:05,541 --> 08:35:08,543
This, to Czerniakow,
this simple episode,

5934
08:35:08,669 --> 08:35:12,130
was the ultimate of virtue.

5935
08:35:17,178 --> 08:35:19,596
(Lanzmann) He is never revolted?

5936
08:35:20,932 --> 08:35:24,393
He doesn't bother,
or he doesn't express the revolt.

5937
08:35:24,519 --> 08:35:28,522
He doesn't express the disgust
except with other Jews,

5938
08:35:30,108 --> 08:35:33,568
Jews who either deserted
the community

5939
08:35:33,694 --> 08:35:36,154
by emigrating early,

5940
08:35:36,280 --> 08:35:40,951
or Jews who, like Gancwajch,
are collaborating with the Germans.

5941
08:35:42,703 --> 08:35:47,207
And, for the Germans,
he doesn't have words of disgust.

5942
08:35:47,333 --> 08:35:50,293
I think he is beyond such words.

5943
08:35:51,546 --> 08:35:56,967
He hasn't any criticism
of the Germans themselves

5944
08:35:57,093 --> 08:36:00,387
and only seldom allows himself
to make a remark

5945
08:36:01,347 --> 08:36:05,100
which indicates that
he opposed something by arguing.

5946
08:36:05,226 --> 08:36:07,477
He very seldom argues
with the Germans.

5947
08:36:07,603 --> 08:36:10,689
He pleads, he appeals,
but he doesn't argue with them.

5948
08:36:10,815 --> 08:36:14,943
He does argue when he's forced
not only to build the wall

5949
08:36:15,069 --> 08:36:16,903
but to pay for it.

5950
08:36:17,530 --> 08:36:21,575
And he says that, if the wall is
being put up as a hygienic measure

5951
08:36:21,701 --> 08:36:26,997
to prevent Jewish epidemics from engulfing
the Polish or German population outside,

5952
08:36:27,123 --> 08:36:29,249
then why is it...

5953
08:36:29,375 --> 08:36:32,335
why is it that the Jews
have to pay for it?

5954
08:36:32,462 --> 08:36:35,142
The people who get the protection
should be paying for the medicine.

5955
08:36:35,256 --> 08:36:38,383
If the wall is medicine,
let the Germans pay.

5956
08:36:39,093 --> 08:36:42,304
And Auerswald, the ghetto Kommissar,
says that's a very nice argument

5957
08:36:42,430 --> 08:36:46,808
that he, Czerniakow, might bring up
at an international conference someday,

5958
08:36:46,934 --> 08:36:49,186
but, for now, he'll pay for the wall.

5959
08:36:49,312 --> 08:36:51,438
Czerniakow writes all this down,

5960
08:36:51,564 --> 08:36:55,859
including Auerswald's reply
to his own argument.

5961
08:36:55,985 --> 08:37:00,989
And that's about the most
he ever allows him self to say in criticism

5962
08:37:01,491 --> 08:37:04,117
of what the Germans are doing.

5963
08:37:04,243 --> 08:37:09,247
So he takes for granted,
he assumes, he anticipates,

5964
08:37:09,373 --> 08:37:12,542
everything that is happening
to the Jews,

5965
08:37:12,668 --> 08:37:14,503
including the worst.

5966
08:37:16,339 --> 08:37:22,511
(Lanzmann) The Germans had
a policy on the Warsaw ghetto.

5967
08:37:24,388 --> 08:37:26,932
What was that policy?

5968
08:37:28,809 --> 08:37:32,437
You're asking more than I know.

5969
08:37:32,563 --> 08:37:36,274
The policy that wound up
with extermination,

5970
08:37:36,400 --> 08:37:38,568
the Final Solution,

5971
08:37:38,694 --> 08:37:41,363
we knew nothing about it.

5972
08:37:41,489 --> 08:37:44,533
Our job was to maintain the ghetto,

5973
08:37:44,659 --> 08:37:49,621
and try to preserve the Jews
as a work force.

5974
08:37:50,248 --> 08:37:55,710
The Commission's goal,

5975
08:37:55,836 --> 08:37:57,837
in fact, was very different

5976
08:37:57,964 --> 08:38:03,260
from the one that later
led to extermination.

5977
08:38:04,470 --> 08:38:07,556
Yes, but do you know
how many people died

5978
08:38:07,682 --> 08:38:11,226
in the ghetto each month in 1941?

5979
08:38:11,352 --> 08:38:14,521
I don't know now... if I ever knew it.

5980
08:38:14,647 --> 08:38:19,150
But you did know.
There are exact figures.

5981
08:38:20,903 --> 08:38:23,488
I probably knew...

5982
08:38:23,614 --> 08:38:26,908
It was 5,000 a month.

5983
08:38:27,034 --> 08:38:29,494
- 5,000 a month?
- Yes.

5984
08:38:29,620 --> 08:38:32,205
- That's a lot.
- That's a lot, of course.

5985
08:38:32,331 --> 08:38:37,085
But there were far too many people
in the ghetto.

5986
08:38:37,211 --> 08:38:40,380
- That was it. Far too many.
- Far too many?

5987
08:38:40,506 --> 08:38:42,340
Far too many.

5988
08:38:49,473 --> 08:38:52,434
(Lanzmann)
My question is philosophical.

5989
08:38:53,603 --> 08:38:57,314
What does a ghetto mean,
in your opinion?

5990
08:39:01,652 --> 08:39:06,531
(Grassler)
History is full of ghettos,

5991
08:39:07,116 --> 08:39:10,702
going back centuries, for all I know.

5992
08:39:12,872 --> 08:39:15,749
Persecution of the Jews
wasn't a German invention,

5993
08:39:15,875 --> 08:39:19,294
and it didn't start with World War II.

5994
08:39:22,006 --> 08:39:24,674
The Poles persecuted them too.

5995
08:39:29,013 --> 08:39:34,142
(Lanzmann) But a ghetto
like Warsaw's, in a great capital,

5996
08:39:35,102 --> 08:39:37,187
in the heart of the city.

5997
08:39:37,313 --> 08:39:39,814
(Grassler) That was unusual.

5998
08:39:47,698 --> 08:39:51,868
You say you wanted
to maintain the ghetto.

5999
08:39:51,994 --> 08:39:56,790
Our mission wasn't
to annihilate the ghetto,

6000
08:39:56,916 --> 08:40:00,126
but to keep it alive, to maintain it.

6001
08:40:00,252 --> 08:40:03,922
What does "alive" mean in such...?

6002
08:40:04,048 --> 08:40:07,425
That was the problem.
That was the whole problem...

6003
08:40:07,551 --> 08:40:11,096
The problem needed to be resolved.
I knew that.

6004
08:40:11,222 --> 08:40:14,724
But people were dying in the streets.

6005
08:40:15,810 --> 08:40:19,145
- There were bodies everywhere.
- Yes.

6006
08:40:21,357 --> 08:40:24,067
That was the paradox.

6007
08:40:24,193 --> 08:40:28,113
- You see it as a paradox?
- I'm sure of it.

6008
08:40:28,239 --> 08:40:32,909
- Why? Can you explain?
- No.

6009
08:40:34,745 --> 08:40:40,583
- Why not?
- Explain what?

6010
08:40:40,710 --> 08:40:43,628
But the fact is...

6011
08:40:43,754 --> 08:40:49,592
Jews were being exterminated
daily in the ghetto. Czerniakow wrote...

6012
08:40:49,719 --> 08:40:52,679
Yes, yes.
To maintain it properly,

6013
08:40:52,805 --> 08:40:56,558
we'd have needed
more substantial rations,

6014
08:40:56,684 --> 08:40:59,477
and less crowding.

6015
08:41:00,312 --> 08:41:04,941
Why weren't the rations more humane?

6016
08:41:07,194 --> 08:41:09,487
Why weren't they?

6017
08:41:09,613 --> 08:41:12,991
That was a German decision, no?

6018
08:41:13,117 --> 08:41:18,747
There was no real decision
to starve the ghetto.

6019
08:41:18,873 --> 08:41:25,336
The big decision to exterminate
came much later.

6020
08:41:25,463 --> 08:41:29,466
(Lanzmann) That's right, later. In 1942.

6021
08:41:29,592 --> 08:41:32,010
- Precisely.
- Yes.

6022
08:41:32,136 --> 08:41:34,846
- Three years later.
- Yes.

6023
08:41:34,972 --> 08:41:38,767
Our mission, as I recall it,

6024
08:41:38,893 --> 08:41:43,855
was to manage the ghetto,

6025
08:41:44,857 --> 08:41:51,237
and, naturally,
with those inadequate rations,

6026
08:41:51,363 --> 08:41:53,615
and the overcrowding,

6027
08:41:53,741 --> 08:41:59,078
a high, even excessive death rate
was inevitable.

6028
08:41:59,205 --> 08:42:00,288
Yes.

6029
08:42:03,459 --> 08:42:08,463
What does "maintain" the ghetto
mean in such conditions,

6030
08:42:08,589 --> 08:42:11,716
the food, sanitation, etc.?

6031
08:42:12,218 --> 08:42:16,763
What could the Jews do
against such measures?

6032
08:42:22,561 --> 08:42:24,938
They couldn't do anything.

6033
08:42:28,734 --> 08:42:32,737
(Lanzmann) Czerniakow saw a film
before the war

6034
08:42:32,863 --> 08:42:38,493
where the captain of a sinking ship

6035
08:42:38,619 --> 08:42:43,790
gives order to the orchestra
to playjazz.

6036
08:42:43,916 --> 08:42:49,587
In the entry of July 8, 1942,

6037
08:42:50,673 --> 08:42:54,175
not even two weeks before his death,

6038
08:42:54,301 --> 08:42:58,888
he identifies himself
as this captain of the sinking ship.

6039
08:42:59,014 --> 08:43:00,014
Yes.

6040
08:43:00,140 --> 08:43:06,187
Of course, there is no jazz,
but there is a kind of children's festival.

6041
08:43:06,313 --> 08:43:09,899
There are chess tournaments, yes.
There's theatre, a children's festival.

6042
08:43:10,025 --> 08:43:12,902
There's everything going on
until the last moment.

6043
08:43:13,028 --> 08:43:15,905
But, more importantly,
these are symbols.

6044
08:43:16,031 --> 08:43:20,326
These outward cultural activities,
these festivals,

6045
08:43:20,452 --> 08:43:24,539
they're not simply
morale-building devices,

6046
08:43:24,665 --> 08:43:27,709
which is what Czerniakow
identifies them to be.

6047
08:43:27,835 --> 08:43:32,463
Rather, they are symbolic
of the entire posture of the ghetto,

6048
08:43:32,590 --> 08:43:36,634
which is in the process of healing,
or trying to heal, sick people

6049
08:43:36,760 --> 08:43:39,012
who are soon going to be gassed,

6050
08:43:39,138 --> 08:43:44,100
which is trying to educate youngsters
who will never be growing up,

6051
08:43:44,643 --> 08:43:49,355
which is in the process of trying to find
work for people and increase employment

6052
08:43:49,481 --> 08:43:52,817
in a situation which is doomed to failure.

6053
08:43:52,943 --> 08:43:57,405
They are going on
as though life will continue.

6054
08:43:57,531 --> 08:44:01,367
They have an official faith
in the survivability of the ghetto,

6055
08:44:01,493 --> 08:44:05,496
even after all indications
are to the contrary.

6056
08:44:05,623 --> 08:44:09,000
The strategy continues to be:

6057
08:44:09,126 --> 08:44:13,671
"We must continue, for this is
the only strategy that is left.

6058
08:44:13,797 --> 08:44:18,843
"We must minimise the injury, minimise
the damage, minimise the losses,

6059
08:44:18,969 --> 08:44:20,470
"but we must continue."

6060
08:44:20,596 --> 08:44:25,642
And continuity is the only thing,
in all of this.

6061
08:44:25,768 --> 08:44:30,647
But obviously when he compares himself
to this captain of a sinking ship,

6062
08:44:30,773 --> 08:44:32,899
he knows that everything is sinking.

6063
08:44:33,025 --> 08:44:34,359
He knows.

6064
08:44:34,485 --> 08:44:39,864
I think he knew or he sensed
or he believed the end was coming

6065
08:44:39,990 --> 08:44:44,202
perhaps as early as October 1941,

6066
08:44:44,328 --> 08:44:48,373
when he has a note
about alarming rumours

6067
08:44:48,499 --> 08:44:51,751
as to the fate of Warsaw Jewry
in the spring.

6068
08:44:51,877 --> 08:44:55,254
This is also when Bischoff,
the head of the Transferstelle, tells him

6069
08:44:55,381 --> 08:44:59,509
that, after all, a ghetto is
only a temporary device,

6070
08:44:59,635 --> 08:45:02,720
without specifying for what.

6071
08:45:02,846 --> 08:45:05,556
He knows, because in January,

6072
08:45:05,683 --> 08:45:08,309
he has premonitions
or reports and rumours

6073
08:45:08,435 --> 08:45:10,853
about Lithuanians coming.

6074
08:45:10,980 --> 08:45:15,316
He is concerned when Auerswald
disappears and is going to Berlin

6075
08:45:15,442 --> 08:45:17,944
right around January 20, 1942,

6076
08:45:18,070 --> 08:45:20,196
which we now know
to have been the date

6077
08:45:20,322 --> 08:45:22,573
of the Final Solution Conference
in Berlin,

6078
08:45:25,911 --> 08:45:27,996
the Wannsee Conference.

6079
08:45:29,081 --> 08:45:33,960
THE FINAL SOLUTION CONFERENCE
WAS HELD HERE

6080
08:45:34,086 --> 08:45:36,796
And even though Czerniakow,
in Warsaw, behind the walls,

6081
08:45:36,922 --> 08:45:39,716
has no idea of such a conference
going on in Berlin,

6082
08:45:39,842 --> 08:45:44,262
yet he is concerned that Auerswald,
the ghetto Kommissar, is going to Berlin.

6083
08:45:44,388 --> 08:45:47,598
He can't imagine why,

6084
08:45:47,725 --> 08:45:51,310
unless it is for a purpose
that bodes no good.

6085
08:45:56,608 --> 08:46:00,445
And so, in February,
there are more rumours.

6086
08:46:02,531 --> 08:46:06,534
In March, the rumours are
becoming even more specific.

6087
08:46:19,423 --> 08:46:22,633
He now begins to record

6088
08:46:22,760 --> 08:46:26,179
the departure of Jews
from the Lublin ghetto,

6089
08:46:26,305 --> 08:46:28,473
or Mielec,

6090
08:46:28,599 --> 08:46:30,349
or Krakow,

6091
08:46:31,435 --> 08:46:33,144
and Lwow.

6092
08:46:37,608 --> 08:46:40,068
And he recognises

6093
08:46:40,194 --> 08:46:44,363
that something may well be
in the offing for Warsaw itself.

6094
08:46:51,830 --> 08:46:55,458
And every subsequent entry
is replete

6095
08:46:55,584 --> 08:46:59,629
with the anxiety that he feels.

6096
08:47:29,243 --> 08:47:34,247
BELZEC
SITE OF THE EXTERMINATION CAMP

6097
08:47:47,469 --> 08:47:51,180
(Lanzmann)
When Czerniakow hears rumours

6098
08:47:51,306 --> 08:47:56,894
about the deportations
from Lublin, Lwow and Krakow,

6099
08:47:58,063 --> 08:48:01,524
around March 1942,

6100
08:48:02,818 --> 08:48:06,028
and we know now that
the transports went to Belzec,

6101
08:48:13,537 --> 08:48:17,874
does he ask in his diary
where they are shipped,

6102
08:48:19,334 --> 08:48:21,043
what happens to them?

6103
08:48:21,170 --> 08:48:24,422
(Hilberg) No. He never does.

6104
08:48:25,799 --> 08:48:28,259
And he never mentions
any destination.

6105
08:48:37,728 --> 08:48:39,770
But we cannot really decide

6106
08:48:39,897 --> 08:48:44,817
that he had no knowledge whatsoever
about these camps.

6107
08:48:55,162 --> 08:48:59,165
All we know is that
he didn't mention them in the diary.

6108
08:49:02,711 --> 08:49:04,921
We also know, of course,
from other sources,

6109
08:49:05,047 --> 08:49:09,508
that the existence of death camps
was already known in Warsaw,

6110
08:49:09,635 --> 08:49:12,220
certainly by June.

6111
08:49:22,147 --> 08:49:26,442
(Lanzmann) Why did Czerniakow
commit suicide?

6112
08:49:27,527 --> 08:49:34,617
Because he realised
there was no future for the ghetto.

6113
08:49:34,743 --> 08:49:40,164
He probably saw before I did
that the Jews would be killed.

6114
08:49:42,918 --> 08:49:50,132
I suppose the Jews already had
their excellent secret services.

6115
08:49:50,259 --> 08:49:53,219
They were too well informed,

6116
08:49:53,345 --> 08:49:55,179
better than we were.

6117
08:49:56,014 --> 08:49:58,015
- You think so?
- Yes, I do.

6118
08:49:58,141 --> 08:50:03,312
- The Jews knew more than you?
- I'm convinced of it.

6119
08:50:03,438 --> 08:50:06,357
- It's hard to believe.
- Yeah, yeah...

6120
08:50:06,483 --> 08:50:10,528
The German administration
was never informed

6121
08:50:10,654 --> 08:50:14,031
of what would happen to the Jews.

6122
08:50:17,828 --> 08:50:21,455
When was the first deportation
to Treblinka?

6123
08:50:28,797 --> 08:50:32,258
Before Auerswald's suicide,
I think.

6124
08:50:33,635 --> 08:50:39,015
- Auerswald's?
- I mean Czerniakow's. Sorry.

6125
08:50:39,141 --> 08:50:40,975
July 22.

6126
08:50:42,436 --> 08:50:46,355
Those are dates which...

6127
08:50:46,481 --> 08:50:51,027
So the deportations began
July 22, 1942.

6128
08:50:51,153 --> 08:50:52,570
Yes.

6129
08:50:53,739 --> 08:50:55,197
To Treblinka.

6130
08:50:55,324 --> 08:50:59,577
And Czerniakow killed himself
on July 23.

6131
08:51:00,412 --> 08:51:02,079
Yes, that is...

6132
08:51:02,205 --> 08:51:03,664
- The next day.
- The next day.

6133
08:51:03,790 --> 08:51:07,543
So that was it, he'd realised

6134
08:51:07,669 --> 08:51:10,546
that his idea...

6135
08:51:10,672 --> 08:51:15,051
it was his idea, I think, of working
in good faith with the Germans,

6136
08:51:15,177 --> 08:51:19,055
in the Jews' best interests.

6137
08:51:19,181 --> 08:51:25,478
He'd realised this idea, this dream,
was destroyed.

6138
08:51:25,604 --> 08:51:29,607
- That the idea was a dream?
- Yes.

6139
08:51:29,733 --> 08:51:34,653
And when the dream faded,
he took the logical way out.

6140
08:51:47,501 --> 08:51:52,713
(Lanzmann) The last entry takes
place how long before his suicide?

6141
08:51:56,802 --> 08:52:02,223
(Hilberg) The last entry precedes
his death by a few hours.

6142
08:52:04,559 --> 08:52:07,019
(Lanzmann)
And what does he write?

6143
08:52:13,485 --> 08:52:15,528
(Hilberg) "It is three o'clock.

6144
08:52:17,781 --> 08:52:20,825
"So far, 4,000 are ready to go.

6145
08:52:22,536 --> 08:52:26,455
"The orders are that
there must be 9,000 by 4:00."

6146
08:52:32,671 --> 08:52:35,464
This is the last entry
of a man on the afternoon

6147
08:52:35,590 --> 08:52:38,092
of the day that he commits suicide.

6148
08:52:45,976 --> 08:52:52,898
(Lanzmann) The first transport
of the Jews of Warsaw for Treblinka

6149
08:52:53,024 --> 08:52:58,696
was the 22nd of July, 1942.

6150
08:52:59,906 --> 08:53:03,826
- And he commits suicide the day after?
- That's right.

6151
08:53:03,952 --> 08:53:05,995
In other words, on the 22nd,
you see,

6152
08:53:06,121 --> 08:53:09,457
on the 22nd, he is called in
by Sturmbannführer Höfle,

6153
08:53:09,583 --> 08:53:12,084
who is in charge
of the resettlement staff,

6154
08:53:12,210 --> 08:53:14,295
who has come in there
for the express purpose

6155
08:53:14,421 --> 08:53:16,172
of taking the Jews out of Warsaw.

6156
08:53:16,298 --> 08:53:18,757
Höfle tells him on the 22nd...

6157
08:53:19,926 --> 08:53:24,972
And, here, incidentally,
is another fascinating point.

6158
08:53:25,891 --> 08:53:29,268
Czerniakow is so agitated

6159
08:53:29,394 --> 08:53:32,688
that he doesn't put the date
down correctly.

6160
08:53:32,814 --> 08:53:38,819
Instead of saying, "July 22, 1942,"
he says, "July 22, 1940."

6161
08:53:40,447 --> 08:53:41,947
(Clicks tongue)

6162
08:53:42,073 --> 08:53:46,243
Höfle calls him in at 10:00,

6163
08:53:47,329 --> 08:53:49,914
disconnects the telephones.

6164
08:53:50,040 --> 08:53:54,251
Children are removed from the playground
opposite the community building.

6165
08:53:54,377 --> 08:53:57,838
And then he is told that all Jews,
irrespective of sex and age,

6166
08:53:57,964 --> 08:54:02,134
with certain exceptions,
will be deported to the east.

6167
08:54:03,303 --> 08:54:05,429
To the east.

6168
08:54:06,014 --> 08:54:07,681
Again, the east.

6169
08:54:07,807 --> 08:54:12,436
And by 4:00pm today, a contingent
of 6,000 people must be provided,

6170
08:54:12,562 --> 08:54:15,105
and this, at the minimum,
will be the daily quota.

6171
08:54:15,232 --> 08:54:21,153
Now, he's told that at 10:00
in the morning of July 22, 1942.

6172
08:54:21,279 --> 08:54:24,031
He then goes on,
he keeps appealing.

6173
08:54:24,157 --> 08:54:26,659
He wants certain exemptions.

6174
08:54:26,785 --> 08:54:29,286
He wants the council staff
to be exempt.

6175
08:54:29,412 --> 08:54:32,790
He wants the staff of the welfare
organisations to be exempt,

6176
08:54:32,916 --> 08:54:36,377
and he's terribly worried
that the orphans will be deported,

6177
08:54:36,503 --> 08:54:39,505
and he repeatedly brings up
the orphans.

6178
08:54:39,631 --> 08:54:42,967
And, on the next day,
he still doesn't have assurance

6179
08:54:43,093 --> 08:54:46,595
that the orphans
are going to be saved.

6180
08:54:47,764 --> 08:54:52,184
Now, if he cannot be
the caretaker of the orphanage,

6181
08:54:52,310 --> 08:54:54,603
then he has lost his war.

6182
08:54:55,730 --> 08:54:58,148
He has lost his struggle.

6183
08:54:59,359 --> 08:55:01,735
(Lanzmann) But why the orphans?

6184
08:55:01,861 --> 08:55:04,113
They are the most helpless element
in the community.

6185
08:55:04,239 --> 08:55:08,033
They are the little children, its future,
who have lost their parents.

6186
08:55:08,159 --> 08:55:12,037
They cannot possibly do
anything on their own.

6187
08:55:12,163 --> 08:55:16,166
If the orphans do not have exemption,
if he doesn't even get the promise,

6188
08:55:16,293 --> 08:55:19,878
the words spoken
by a German SS officer,

6189
08:55:20,005 --> 08:55:24,341
not even assurances, which,
as he knows, cannot be counted on,

6190
08:55:24,467 --> 08:55:27,011
if he cannot even get the words,

6191
08:55:27,512 --> 08:55:29,513
what can he think?

6192
08:55:37,731 --> 08:55:41,817
If he cannot take care of the children,
what else can he do?

6193
08:56:00,629 --> 08:56:03,547
Some people report that

6194
08:56:03,673 --> 08:56:08,385
he wrote a note
after he closed the book on the diary,

6195
08:56:08,970 --> 08:56:10,846
in which he said...

6196
08:56:13,683 --> 08:56:18,729
"They want me to kill the children
with my own hands."

6197
08:56:41,920 --> 08:56:46,632
(Lanzmann) Did you think this idea
of a ghetto was a good one?

6198
08:56:46,758 --> 08:56:48,967
A sort of self-management, right?

6199
08:56:49,094 --> 08:56:52,680
- That's right.
- A mini-state?

6200
08:56:52,806 --> 08:56:55,516
It worked well.

6201
08:56:55,642 --> 08:56:59,561
But it was self-management
for death, no?

6202
08:56:59,688 --> 08:57:02,773
We know that now.
But at the time...

6203
08:57:02,899 --> 08:57:05,192
- Even then!
- No.

6204
08:57:05,318 --> 08:57:07,236
Czerniakow wrote,

6205
08:57:07,362 --> 08:57:12,741
"We're puppets,
we have no power."

6206
08:57:12,867 --> 08:57:17,037
- No power.
- Sure, that was...

6207
08:57:17,163 --> 08:57:21,959
- You Germans were the overlords.
- Yes.

6208
08:57:22,085 --> 08:57:24,920
The overlords, the masters.

6209
08:57:25,046 --> 08:57:26,880
Obviously.

6210
08:57:27,006 --> 08:57:33,595
- Czerniakow was merely a tool.
- A tool, yes.

6211
08:57:33,722 --> 08:57:37,057
Yes, but a good tool.

6212
08:57:37,183 --> 08:57:41,562
Jewish self-management
worked well, I can tell you.

6213
08:57:43,356 --> 08:57:47,109
It worked well for three years...

6214
08:57:49,404 --> 08:57:53,240
1941, 1942, 1943.
Two and a half years. And in the end...

6215
08:57:53,366 --> 08:57:58,537
- And in the end...
- "Worked well" for what?

6216
08:57:58,663 --> 08:58:01,039
To what end?

6217
08:58:01,166 --> 08:58:04,293
For self-preservation.

6218
08:58:04,419 --> 08:58:06,336
No, for death!

6219
08:58:06,463 --> 08:58:10,632
- Yes, but...
- Self-management, self-preservation...

6220
08:58:10,759 --> 08:58:13,469
That's easy to say now.

6221
08:58:13,595 --> 08:58:19,141
You admitted the conditions
were inhuman.

6222
08:58:19,267 --> 08:58:22,770
Atrocious, horrible.

6223
08:58:22,896 --> 08:58:26,648
So it was clear even then...

6224
08:58:27,984 --> 08:58:31,862
No, extermination wasn't clear.

6225
08:58:31,988 --> 08:58:37,326
- Now we see the result.
- Extermination isn't so simple.

6226
08:58:37,452 --> 08:58:39,703
One step was taken,

6227
08:58:39,829 --> 08:58:45,542
then another, and another,
and another...

6228
08:58:45,668 --> 08:58:50,380
But to understand the process,
one must...

6229
08:58:50,507 --> 08:58:57,513
I repeat: extermination did not take
place in the ghetto, not at first.

6230
08:58:57,639 --> 08:59:00,182
Only with the evacuations.

6231
08:59:00,308 --> 08:59:02,392
Otherwise, in the ghetto,
we would have...

6232
08:59:02,519 --> 08:59:04,603
Evacuations?

6233
08:59:04,729 --> 08:59:06,855
The evacuations to Treblinka.

6234
08:59:06,981 --> 08:59:12,152
The ghetto could have been
wiped out with weapons, no?

6235
08:59:12,278 --> 08:59:15,781
As it was finally done,
after the rebellion.

6236
08:59:15,907 --> 08:59:20,160
After I'd left.
But at the start...

6237
08:59:20,286 --> 08:59:23,497
Mr. Lanzmann,
this is getting us nowhere.

6238
08:59:24,541 --> 08:59:27,751
We're reaching no new conclusions.

6239
08:59:28,586 --> 08:59:34,174
- I don't think we can.
- No.

6240
08:59:34,300 --> 08:59:39,972
I didn't know then
what I know now.

6241
08:59:40,098 --> 08:59:43,809
You weren't a nonentity.

6242
08:59:43,935 --> 08:59:46,937
- But I was.
- You were important.

6243
08:59:48,231 --> 08:59:51,400
- You overestimate my role.
- No.

6244
08:59:53,695 --> 08:59:58,866
You were 2nd to the Commissioner
of the Warsaw "Jewish District."

6245
08:59:58,992 --> 09:00:02,703
- But I had no power.
- It was something.

6246
09:00:02,829 --> 09:00:07,082
You were part of the vast
German power structure.

6247
09:00:07,208 --> 09:00:10,878
Correct. But a small part.

6248
09:00:11,004 --> 09:00:15,716
You overestimate the authority
of a deputy of 28 then.

6249
09:00:15,842 --> 09:00:17,926
- You were 30.
- 28.

6250
09:00:18,052 --> 09:00:20,929
At 30, you were...

6251
09:00:24,517 --> 09:00:27,686
You were mature.

6252
09:00:28,521 --> 09:00:33,942
Yes, but for a lawyer
who got his degree at 27,

6253
09:00:34,068 --> 09:00:36,194
it's just a beginning.

6254
09:00:36,321 --> 09:00:37,738
Yes.

6255
09:00:40,491 --> 09:00:43,952
- You had a doctorate.
- The title proves nothing.

6256
09:00:45,413 --> 09:00:47,789
- Did Auerswald have one too?
- No.

6257
09:00:47,916 --> 09:00:50,709
But the title's irrelevant.

6258
09:00:50,835 --> 09:00:53,295
Doctor of Law...

6259
09:00:53,421 --> 09:00:56,131
What did you do after the war?

6260
09:00:57,425 --> 09:01:02,763
I was with a mountaineering
publishing house.

6261
09:01:02,889 --> 09:01:04,514
- Is that so?
- Yes.

6262
09:01:04,641 --> 09:01:09,770
I wrote and published
mountain guidebooks.

6263
09:01:09,896 --> 09:01:12,731
I published a climbers' magazine.

6264
09:01:12,857 --> 09:01:16,109
Is climbing your main interest?

6265
09:01:17,236 --> 09:01:18,612
Yes.

6266
09:01:19,656 --> 09:01:22,491
- The mountains, the air...
- Yes.

6267
09:01:22,617 --> 09:01:25,410
The sun, the pure air...

6268
09:01:25,536 --> 09:01:28,246
Not like the ghetto air.

6269
09:02:15,586 --> 09:02:17,462
(♪Women sing in Yiddish)

6270
09:02:17,588 --> 09:02:21,091
♪ The words,
the words that I write to you

6271
09:02:21,217 --> 09:02:24,970
♪ Are not written with ink,
but with tears

6272
09:02:25,096 --> 09:02:28,640
♪ The best years are ending now

6273
09:02:28,766 --> 09:02:32,269
♪ Are not written with ink,
but with tears

6274
09:02:32,395 --> 09:02:36,023
♪ The best years are ending now

6275
09:02:36,149 --> 09:02:39,276
♪ And are gone, not to return

6276
09:02:39,402 --> 09:02:43,613
♪ It is difficult to fix that
which is shattered

6277
09:02:43,740 --> 09:02:48,660
♪ And it is difficult
to unite our love

6278
09:02:48,786 --> 09:02:51,580
♪ Oh, show your tears

6279
09:02:51,706 --> 09:02:54,458
♪ The fault is not mine

6280
09:02:54,584 --> 09:02:58,378
♪ Because it must be so

6281
09:02:58,504 --> 09:03:02,424
♪ It must be so, it must be so

6282
09:03:02,550 --> 09:03:06,386
♪ We must both separate

6283
09:03:06,512 --> 09:03:10,307
♪ It must be so, it must be so

6284
09:03:10,433 --> 09:03:13,685
♪ The love that ends for both of us

6285
09:03:13,811 --> 09:03:18,648
♪ Do you remember
when I left you?

6286
09:03:18,775 --> 09:03:22,569
♪ My fate dictated
I must leave you

6287
09:03:22,695 --> 09:03:25,072
♪ Because in this way
I will never again be bothered

6288
09:03:25,198 --> 09:03:27,407
NEW YORK - GERTRUDE
SCHNEIDER AND HER MOTHER

6289
09:03:27,533 --> 09:03:30,535
♪ Because it must be so ♪

6290
09:03:31,829 --> 09:03:35,123
LOHAME HAGHETAOT
KIBBUTZ MUSEUM

6291
09:03:35,249 --> 09:03:39,503
GHETTO FIGHTERS' KIBBUTZ,
ISRAEL

6292
09:03:39,629 --> 09:03:43,924
JEWISH COMBAT ORGANISATION
(JCO) IN THE WARSAW GHETTO

6293
09:03:44,050 --> 09:03:48,303
WAS OFFICIALLY FORMED
ON JULY 28, 1942.

6294
09:03:48,429 --> 09:03:52,766
AFTER THE FIRST MASS
DEPORTATION TO TREBLINKA,

6295
09:03:52,892 --> 09:03:56,144
WHICH WAS INTERRUPTED
ON SEPTEMBER 30,

6296
09:03:56,270 --> 09:04:00,565
SOME 60,000 JEWS
REMAINED IN THE GHETTO.

6297
09:04:00,691 --> 09:04:05,028
ON JANUARY 18, 1943,
DEPORTATIONS WERE RESUMED.

6298
09:04:05,154 --> 09:04:08,365
DESPITE A SEVERE LACK
OF WEAPONS,

6299
09:04:08,491 --> 09:04:12,828
THE MEMBERS OF THE JCO
CALLED FOR RESISTANCE,

6300
09:04:12,954 --> 09:04:17,207
AND STARTED FIGHTING, TO
THE GERMANS' TOTAL SURPRISE.

6301
09:04:17,333 --> 09:04:19,543
IT LASTED THREE DAYS.

6302
09:04:19,669 --> 09:04:22,921
THE NAZIS WITHDREW
WITH LOSSES,

6303
09:04:23,047 --> 09:04:27,384
ABANDONING WEAPONS
THE JEWS GRABBED.

6304
09:04:27,510 --> 09:04:30,720
THE DEPORTATIONS
WERE STOPPED.

6305
09:04:30,847 --> 09:04:33,056
THE GERMANS NOW KNEW

6306
09:04:33,182 --> 09:04:37,519
THAT THEY HAD TO FIGHT
TO CONQUER THE GHETTO.

6307
09:04:37,645 --> 09:04:41,940
THE BATTLE BEGAN ON
THE EVENING OF APRIL 19, 1943,

6308
09:04:42,066 --> 09:04:46,403
THE EVE OF PESSACH PASSOVER.

6309
09:04:46,529 --> 09:04:50,949
IT HAD TO BE
A FIGHT TO THE DEATH.

6310
09:05:51,969 --> 09:05:55,555
SIMHA ROTTEM, known as "Kajik"

6311
09:05:55,681 --> 09:06:00,810
ITZHAK ZUCKERMANN, known as
"Antek," 2nd in command of the JCO

6312
09:06:00,937 --> 09:06:03,605
(Antek speaks Hebrew)

6313
09:06:06,275 --> 09:06:09,402
(Interpreter ♪3, in French)
I began drinking after the war.

6314
09:06:17,787 --> 09:06:20,121
It was very difficult.

6315
09:06:36,430 --> 09:06:39,683
Claude, you asked for my impression.

6316
09:06:41,185 --> 09:06:44,729
If you could lick my heart,

6317
09:06:44,855 --> 09:06:47,399
it would poison you.

6318
09:06:51,070 --> 09:06:55,073
AT THE REQUEST OF
MORDECHAI ANIELEWICZ,

6319
09:06:55,199 --> 09:06:58,451
COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF
OF THE JCO,

6320
09:06:58,577 --> 09:07:03,290
ANTEK LEFT THE GHETTO 6 DAYS
BEFORE THE GERMAN ATTACK.

6321
09:07:03,416 --> 09:07:05,625
HIS MISSION:

6322
09:07:05,751 --> 09:07:10,088
TO ASK POLISH RESISTANCE
LEADERS TO ARM THE JEWS.

6323
09:07:10,214 --> 09:07:13,216
THEY REFUSED.

6324
09:07:25,062 --> 09:07:27,063
(Speaks Hebrew)

6325
09:08:24,955 --> 09:08:30,418
(Interpreter ♪3) I don't think
the human tongue can describe

6326
09:08:30,544 --> 09:08:33,421
the horror we went through
in the ghetto.

6327
09:08:34,882 --> 09:08:39,094
In the streets,
if you can call them that,

6328
09:08:39,220 --> 09:08:42,138
for nothing was left of the streets,

6329
09:08:42,264 --> 09:08:47,519
we had to step over heaps of corpses.

6330
09:08:47,645 --> 09:08:50,605
There was no room
to pass beside them.

6331
09:08:50,731 --> 09:08:56,569
Besides fighting the Germans,
we fought hunger and thirst.

6332
09:08:56,695 --> 09:08:59,823
We had no contact
with the outside world,

6333
09:08:59,949 --> 09:09:04,035
we were completely isolated,
cut off from the world.

6334
09:09:05,496 --> 09:09:07,497
(Continues in Hebrew)

6335
09:09:19,802 --> 09:09:25,515
(Interpreter ♪3) We were in such a state
that we could no longer understand

6336
09:09:25,641 --> 09:09:29,602
the very meaning
of why we went on fighting.

6337
09:09:37,361 --> 09:09:41,072
We thought of attempting
a breakout

6338
09:09:41,198 --> 09:09:44,742
to the Aryan part of Warsaw,
outside the ghetto.

6339
09:09:44,869 --> 09:09:47,245
(Kajik continues in Hebrew)

6340
09:10:00,050 --> 09:10:02,260
Just before May 1,

6341
09:10:02,386 --> 09:10:04,804
Sigmund and I were sent

6342
09:10:04,930 --> 09:10:09,851
to try to contact Antek
in Aryan Warsaw.

6343
09:10:27,328 --> 09:10:31,748
(Interpreter ♪3 continues) We found
a tunnel under Bonifrateska Street

6344
09:10:31,874 --> 09:10:36,336
that led out into Aryan Warsaw.

6345
09:10:59,944 --> 09:11:02,654
(Kajik continues in Hebrew)

6346
09:11:08,410 --> 09:11:10,411
Early in the morning,

6347
09:11:10,538 --> 09:11:15,250
we suddenly emerged
into a street in broad daylight.

6348
09:11:15,376 --> 09:11:17,377
(Kajik continues)

6349
09:11:23,926 --> 09:11:27,720
Imagine us on that sunny May 1,

6350
09:11:27,846 --> 09:11:32,433
stunned to find ourselves in the street,
among normal people.

6351
09:11:32,560 --> 09:11:36,104
We'd come from another planet.

6352
09:11:58,294 --> 09:12:00,295
(Kajik continues)

6353
09:12:14,893 --> 09:12:19,606
People immediatelyjumped on us

6354
09:12:19,732 --> 09:12:24,902
because we certainly looked exhausted,
skinny, in rags.

6355
09:12:26,363 --> 09:12:33,119
Around the ghetto, there were always
suspicious Poles who grabbed Jews.

6356
09:12:39,168 --> 09:12:41,002
(Kajik continues)

6357
09:12:43,422 --> 09:12:46,549
By a miracle, we escaped them.

6358
09:12:54,767 --> 09:12:56,601
(Kajik continues)

6359
09:13:01,398 --> 09:13:03,983
In Aryan Warsaw,

6360
09:13:04,109 --> 09:13:09,489
life went on as naturally
and normally as before.

6361
09:13:14,787 --> 09:13:16,621
(Kajik continues)

6362
09:13:27,132 --> 09:13:29,258
The cafes operated normally,

6363
09:13:29,385 --> 09:13:32,428
the restaurants, buses, streetcars...

6364
09:13:32,554 --> 09:13:35,181
The movies were open.

6365
09:13:35,307 --> 09:13:37,141
(Kajik continues)

6366
09:13:40,854 --> 09:13:46,025
The ghetto was an isolated island
amid normal life.

6367
09:14:02,209 --> 09:14:04,043
(Kajik continues)

6368
09:14:19,351 --> 09:14:25,189
(Interpreter) Our job was to contact
Itzhak Zuckermann

6369
09:14:25,315 --> 09:14:28,568
to try to mount a rescue operation,

6370
09:14:28,694 --> 09:14:34,407
to try to save the few fighters
who might still be alive in the ghetto.

6371
09:14:35,409 --> 09:14:37,243
(Kajik continues)

6372
09:14:38,579 --> 09:14:42,582
We managed to contact Zuckermann.

6373
09:14:46,086 --> 09:14:47,920
(Kajik continues)

6374
09:14:50,758 --> 09:14:54,302
We found two sewer workers.

6375
09:14:54,428 --> 09:14:56,262
(Kajik continues)

6376
09:15:13,739 --> 09:15:15,656
On the night of May 8-9,

6377
09:15:15,783 --> 09:15:18,785
we decided to return to the ghetto

6378
09:15:18,911 --> 09:15:23,498
with another buddy, Riszek,
and the two sewer workers.

6379
09:15:23,999 --> 09:15:28,336
After the curfew,
we entered the sewers.

6380
09:15:33,175 --> 09:15:35,009
(Kajik continues)

6381
09:15:41,683 --> 09:15:46,103
We were entirely at the mercy
of the two workmen,

6382
09:15:46,230 --> 09:15:50,900
since only they knew
the ghetto's underground layout.

6383
09:15:53,987 --> 09:15:55,822
(Kajik continues)

6384
09:16:05,290 --> 09:16:09,210
Halfway there,
they decided to turn back,

6385
09:16:09,336 --> 09:16:14,048
they tried to drop us, and we had
to threaten them with our guns.

6386
09:16:15,551 --> 09:16:17,385
(Kajik continues)

6387
09:16:19,930 --> 09:16:24,392
We went on through the sewers...

6388
09:16:28,647 --> 09:16:30,481
(Kajik continues)

6389
09:16:33,986 --> 09:16:39,866
...until one of the workmen told us
we were under the ghetto.

6390
09:16:39,992 --> 09:16:41,826
(Kajik continues)

6391
09:16:44,538 --> 09:16:49,041
Riszek guarded them
so they couldn't escape.

6392
09:16:49,167 --> 09:16:51,627
MILA 18 - JCO BUNKER
HEADQUARTERS

6393
09:16:51,753 --> 09:16:53,588
(Kajik continues)

6394
09:16:57,134 --> 09:17:02,930
I raised the manhole cover
to go up into the ghetto.

6395
09:17:17,195 --> 09:17:19,030
(Kajik continues)

6396
09:17:23,493 --> 09:17:27,747
At bunker Mila 18,
I missed them by a day.

6397
09:17:29,791 --> 09:17:31,626
(Kajik continues)

6398
09:17:42,930 --> 09:17:46,599
I had returned the night of May 8-9.

6399
09:17:49,102 --> 09:17:55,149
The Germans found the bunker
on the morning of the 8th.

6400
09:17:55,275 --> 09:17:59,278
WARSAW - MONUMENT
TO THE GHETTO FIGHTERS

6401
09:18:09,831 --> 09:18:11,666
(Kajik continues)

6402
09:18:16,254 --> 09:18:20,633
Most of its survivors
committed suicide,

6403
09:18:20,759 --> 09:18:23,678
or succumbed to gas in the bunkers.

6404
09:18:24,846 --> 09:18:29,266
REPLICA OF MONUMENT
TO THE GHETTO FIGHTERS

6405
09:18:29,393 --> 09:18:32,311
JERUSALEM

6406
09:18:59,381 --> 09:19:01,215
(Kajik continues)

6407
09:19:20,068 --> 09:19:25,031
(Interpreter) I went to bunker
Franciszkanska 22.

6408
09:19:25,157 --> 09:19:29,577
There was no answer
when I yelled the password,

6409
09:19:31,872 --> 09:19:34,999
so I had to go on
through the ghetto.

6410
09:19:35,125 --> 09:19:39,211
I suddenly heard a woman
calling from the ruins.

6411
09:19:41,715 --> 09:19:44,675
(Kajik continues in Hebrew)

6412
09:20:20,253 --> 09:20:24,757
(Interpreter) It was darkest night,
no lights, you saw nothing.

6413
09:20:24,883 --> 09:20:28,594
All the houses were in ruins,
and I heard only one voice.

6414
09:20:28,720 --> 09:20:33,140
I thought some evil spell
had been cast on me,

6415
09:20:33,266 --> 09:20:35,976
a woman's voice
talking from the rubble.

6416
09:20:36,103 --> 09:20:38,354
I circled the ruins.

6417
09:20:38,480 --> 09:20:40,231
I didn't look at my watch,

6418
09:20:40,357 --> 09:20:44,318
but I must have spent
half an hour exploring,

6419
09:20:44,444 --> 09:20:47,655
trying to find the woman
whose voice guided me,

6420
09:20:47,781 --> 09:20:50,783
but, unfortunately, I didn't find her.

6421
09:20:53,620 --> 09:20:58,082
- (Lanzmann) Were there fires?
- (Interpreter in Hebrew)

6422
09:20:58,208 --> 09:21:00,209
(Kajik replies in Hebrew)

6423
09:21:17,853 --> 09:21:21,355
Strictly speaking, no,
for the flames had died down,

6424
09:21:21,481 --> 09:21:23,816
but there was still smoke,

6425
09:21:23,942 --> 09:21:26,277
and that awful smell
of charred flesh

6426
09:21:26,403 --> 09:21:30,030
of people who had surely
been burned alive.

6427
09:22:06,526 --> 09:22:09,153
I continued on my way,

6428
09:22:09,279 --> 09:22:13,866
going to other bunkers
in search of fighting units,

6429
09:22:13,992 --> 09:22:16,243
but it was the same everywhere.

6430
09:22:16,369 --> 09:22:20,080
I'd give the password: "Jan."

6431
09:22:22,125 --> 09:22:24,793
(Lanzmann)
That's a Polish first name, Jan.

6432
09:22:26,338 --> 09:22:28,631
(Speaking Hebrew)

6433
09:22:28,757 --> 09:22:31,634
(Interpreter) Right.
And I got no answer.

6434
09:22:31,760 --> 09:22:35,346
I went from bunker to bunker,

6435
09:22:35,472 --> 09:22:39,808
and after walking for hours
in the ghetto,

6436
09:22:39,935 --> 09:22:43,020
I went back toward the sewers.

6437
09:22:43,146 --> 09:22:46,899
- (Lanzmann) Was he alone then?
- (Interpreter ♪3 in Hebrew)

6438
09:22:49,110 --> 09:22:51,612
Yes, I was alone all the time.

6439
09:23:47,127 --> 09:23:49,461
Except for that woman's voice,

6440
09:23:49,587 --> 09:23:54,091
and a man I met
as I came out of the sewers,

6441
09:23:54,217 --> 09:23:57,386
I was alone throughout my tour
of the ghetto.

6442
09:23:57,512 --> 09:24:00,681
I didn't meet a living soul.

6443
09:24:00,807 --> 09:24:03,475
At one point, I recall

6444
09:24:03,601 --> 09:24:07,896
feeling a kind of peace, or serenity,

6445
09:24:08,023 --> 09:24:11,191
when I said to myself,
"I'm the last Jew.

6446
09:24:11,318 --> 09:24:15,362
"I'll wait for morning
and for the Germans."